I'll bet the UK sec. cat # here 539 8212 would be written as 5398212 on the Australian release mind you this is just a hunch. Just checked here and I was right . So differing sec#s should be enough to separate this from the Australian issue when it arrives here.
@Apollo59.Hi,I think there may be some slight confusion here (understandably so;).An "International" release has a different meaning on this site,it is not used to cover CD's which,like this one,were released in different countries,but with different Cat.No's/barcodes etc (most CD's would be International otherwise),it was set-up to capture only releases which use the same Cat.No./label/barcode combination,and group them together,initially,when CD Album World was getting started,i can only presume that it was thought that many CD's that were released worldwide would share the same Cat.No./barcode,and it would save space/time? to group them together,whereas,in actual fact,the reality is the only two or three (as an average) releases out of however many worldwide releases there are,actually share the same Cat./label/barcode,and that is what we were questioning here,whether it is worth doing any more/has any relevance.
With regard to Japanese releases that are on sale in the UK shops,it all depends on price/marketing,i.e,are they labelled "Import",and do they cost any more than a regular release?.I think i'm right in saying (i'm sure someone will let me know if i'm not;) that the criteria on this site has been that if a CD is offered for sale at a regular price,and not marketed as an import,then that country where it has been put on sale should be included as a country of release.Australia is a good example,often stock copies of European/American CD's were shipped to Australia by the record companies,but they were put on sale there at a regular price,not sold at a premium,so not imports,and so they are International because the same Cat./label/barcode combination was on sale in either Europe and Australia or America and Australia.Hope that's of some help (or not,as the case may be;)
@Lee Wrecker.Yes,good luck with that Lee,will keep an eye-out,and probably(depends what mood i'm in;) chip-in with my two-penneth.It would be nice to have some input from a Moderator this time,instead of just us members bouncing ideas off each other.
Apollo59 the best way to get the MODS attention and move things forward would be to start a forum. I know this area is fraught difficulties and someone is going to have to stick their head up to have it lopped off but I'll give it a crack in a day or two. I thought I had some ideas a while back but new problems have emerged since then. Anyway, I'll think about it for a day or so and post something on this topic in a forum. I'll try and make it short and straightforward along the lines of new guidelines. Wish me luck.
gregs78s: OK, we know this title was released internationally because we know there's 20+ separate editions released in various countries, or regions of countries.
However, the cat code for this particular edition, UK, isn't international and was only used for purposes of UK EMI catalogue. Therefore, in this instance, what do we do with it as it was only sold in UK?
I agree with your suggestion that the selection boxes need expanding to handle multiple entry data for such releases - otherwise it'll never work. It's entirely obvious that this facility should have been in position from the off. But this could have repercussions of further confusion.
I'd opt for 1) where was CD made, 2) where was sleeve printed, 3) which country did you buy it in (if you can remember)
On another post, I asked the question why Japanese releases aren't considered as International.
I can walk into certain stores in UK and buy them. I haven't come across any so far being tagged as International here on 45 world, and had said there appears to be one rule for some and not for others.
Btw, how are the Mods contacted to give their opinions?
I would concur Lee,as you know,i've always been an advocate of taking the secondary Cat.No. into account,as,quite often,it is the indicator of which country the release was intended for (when two or more countires use the same main Cat.No./label/barcode combination).The problem is,there are no set guidelines,and so often,secondary Cat.No.'s/spacing between Cat.No.'s,i.e,123 4 567 8 9 0 compared to 12345 67890,are not being taken into account/used,and so enties with "similar" (the same No.'s,but written differently) are being bundled together under one International entry.It is these small differences in secondary Cat.No.'s,and the spacings between No.'s that (in my experience whilst adding my collection anyway) are the country identifiers,so this needs to be looked at IMHO.Here for instance,the entry would be International if the secondary Cat.No. is not taken into account,or separate European/Australian entries if it is.Yes,it will need discussing in the forum again,and again,and again probably;),because,as we realise,there's probably no one quick solution,but i expect it'll get there in the end;),one possible idea might be to have,rather than just "Country" as the first screen choice,have instead a "Country Of Manufacture" based option,i.e,
Booklet/Artwork Made In ........(Flag)
Disc Made In ........................(Flag)
Released In/On Sale In ..........(Flag/s)
To make it easier to actually add a CD,(i.e,the place of manufacture is often on artwork/Disc)
If you are not sure of the country/ies of release,then leave it blank,these flag/s could be added by Mods/members later on down the line who are more used to identifying CD's by their "indicators".,and so,after time,a CD may acquire three flags,let's say,for "Released In/On Sale In",identifying the three specific counties,instead of just International.
(I can already appreciate that this method would come with it's own problems,and it's just an idea,one of many i'm sure,before this issue gets sorted;)
Hi gregs78s you are probably aware that I differentiated the Australian and EU 1999 Bowie EMI releases on the strength of that different secondary cat# and place of manufacture. So I obviously my opinion is to to do the same in this case. That's just my personal preference though and precisely for the reasons you state in your post that putting things in the international category strips items of any identity and essentially creates a new fictional product.
When I started entering CDS a few years back the international category seemed to make some sense the way the MODS were putting it across. However, after a entering my collection I now feel that the international category makes no sense at all and know that national and regional differences are common across most CDs released worldwide. We may be living in a global supermarket and production processes have certainly changed but regardless of this many markets retain particular idiosyncrasies that cause problems for the 45 Worlds wide net blanket approach to CD entries.
I think it's time for a forum on this one (not again) given that we've tried the current system out for a while and know a bit more about how it works in reality. We might want to look at the CD artist homepages as well. Well maybe not, one step at a time.
Gents,when i add CD's i look for any other releases that used the same Cat No./label/barcode combination worldwide (which would,using the current rules of the site) make it International.The Australian release uses the same Cat No./label/barcode,so therefore it's international isn't it?.
Only the secondary Cat.No. differs slightly ... 539 8212 (UK) / 5398212 (Australia),so i'll leave that up to the Mods;).As you know,i'm personally not in favour of the International rule,it's taking away the true identity of entries,and only really works for Beatles releases and other big bands,where the same Cat combination was used for quite a few countries releases,whereas,in 90% of cases,all were doing/saying by making something International,is that it was issued in two (2-3 countries being the average i would estimate) completely unrelated counties using that Cat/label/barcode combination,i.e,it was issued in say the UK and Argentina with the same Cat combination,but what good is that really?,the UK CD would not have been issued in Argentina,and visa-versa,and worst of all,which i've mentioned in the past,we are not identifying any images with regards to their originally entered country when we change an entry from say European to International,so we end up with just lots of pretty pictures,and will end up having to re-identify them again further down the line, so,if anything,i'd rather leave it as European (French retail price code),or even UK if you prefer,so it doesn't bother me,i'm just pointing out that i only make things International if exactly the same Cat.No./label/barcode combination has also been used elsewhere in the world,i don't do it for fun;)
This is the UK version.
Other Euro countries had their own versions - all with flags on the hinge panel and these wouldn't be leaving that territory for sale elsewhere (at least officially)
These are the ones I've come across that I can remember:
Denmark
Netherlands
Greece
Norway/Sweden
Germany/Switzerland/Austria
(I'm sure there were editions for both France and Spain, too)
Eastern European (I don't know which countries, never seen any (I've read they didn't have flags on the hinge panel)
+ I've seen info elsewhere for:
USA/Canada
Argentina/Mexico
Chile
New Zealand (the code is EMI 7243 5 41925 2 4)
I think this example proves the case completely.
An International release can only technically be such if there is only ONE catalogue code.
Having looked at discogs as Lee says, this is an European release. The album as Greg rightly points out was released internationally however with variations of cat#'s, track order, etc.it warrants separate entries in our database.
A quick scour on Discwrongs reveals this one to be not as international as the original poster may have thought. One and two CD versions and different tracklists as gregs78s stated below as well as many different cat#s lead me to think this may be better listed as a European release as is says on the tin.
gregs78s: The flag icon wasn't positioned on the spine, but on the hinge panel.
And bear in mind that Nicholas Pegg isn't always bang-on correct - there's loads of errors in his books that remain as statement of fact from reprint to reprint without ever being corrected.
"In each of the 21 territories that the album was released,it was given it's own track listing,based upon which songs were more popular locally.In a number of countries there were two versions - a single disc version,and a double disc version.All in all 63 tracks appear in at least one of the 20 different versions.The country the edition came from can be identified by a small national flag on the spine,except for the Argentine/Mexican,Eastern European and the UK editions,which are "flag-less"."