The Collector's Collector Member since Feb 2012 3786 Points Moderator
Up to the Roaring '20's, the center labels of U.S. 78's ranged wildly in size, sometimes within the same label. Columbia's label sizes in the mid-'20's in particular were the same size of 3.5" diameter as they would use for their 45's at the point they started pressing in that speed in 1950. Other companies would have either 3.25" or 3.375" or 3.6875". But after the Crash of '29 and ensuing Great Depression, the label size shrunk to a minimum of 2.9375" and a maximum of 3" - which held right up to the demise of the 78 configuration in the late '50's. I was wondering if anyone would know the reasons for this - the exigencies of the Depression? Trying to get more grooves onto a record? The emerging jukebox market (which in time would hold great influence over how records were cut and pressed)?
And on a related tangent, I wonder if anyone would know exactly what the bleed for 78 labels of this spec would have been (3.25" for a 3" label?), what the text safety would have been, how many labels would have been put on a sheet and how they were laid out and stepped center-to-center.
I would think the standardization in size would've had to do with the invention of the changer. I'm not sure when that was, but, there HAVE been other standardizations for coming technology that happened a good while before said tech was heavily available.
A good indicator would be to see if the records you're talking about have run-out and lead-in grooves. I don't think they were used before the automatic changer came to be. Before then, when the song ended, so did the groove!!
Rock, Country or R. & B. - Classic Hits for me! Member since Dec 2014 252 Points
W.B.lbl wrote:
Lead-out grooves were already in place at Columbia and Victor by the mid-1920's.
I recall seeing a gramophone in a shed ant one of my brothers' former in-laws' farm. Though it had the wind-up spring motor, it had a mechanism which shut the motor off at the end of a record(as the stylus traversed the run-out groove). In order that these mechanisms were to "do their job" the run-out was eccentric.
Saving paper does seem to be a good suggestion, more labels per page printed.
Its noted (I have not got a ruler to measure any of mine , though smaller and larger are noticable) that some records 8" tend to have smaller labels, 12" larger , but not always so. Other records have two different sizes on the same disc.
the main reason the label got smaller was to make room for the eccentric ending groove to trip changers. The jukebox industry got the record companies to standardize on an eccentric groove in the early 30's. Most early changers and jukeboxes used an eccentric trip that activated from the reverse motion of the tonearm swing once it got to the finishing groove. Victor had started that in the early to mid 20's when they added a mechanism to automatically stop wind up victrolas, but many small labels did not add the grooves until Jukeboxes became popular.
When Lp's came out, the lighter pickups often bounced out of the groove due to the high forces required to operate the eccentric trip ratchet, so then changers went to something called a velocity trip, and the eccentric groove was eliminated on lp records. 45s never had eccentric grooves, that was another reason for abandoning the eccentric trip.
Rock, Country or R. & B. - Classic Hits for me! Member since Dec 2014 252 Points
Olorin67 wrote:
the main reason the label got smaller was to make room for the eccentric ending groove to trip changers. The jukebox industry got the record companies to standardize on an eccentric groove in the early 30's. Most early changers and jukeboxes used an eccentric trip that activated from the reverse motion of the tonearm swing once it got to the finishing groove. Victor had started that in the early to mid 20's when they added a mechanism to automatically stop wind up victrolas, but many small labels did not add the grooves until Jukeboxes became popular.
When Lp's came out, the lighter pickups often bounced out of the groove due to the high forces required to operate the eccentric trip ratchet, so then changers went to something called a velocity trip, and the eccentric groove was eliminated on lp records. 45s never had eccentric grooves, that was another reason for abandoning the eccentric trip.
I should correct you on that last point on eccentric "trip" tracks on 45s, The W. & G.-processed "Golden Fleece Top Hits" 45s(and occasional 7" 33 &1/3 EPs) did indeed have the eccentric run-out "trip" track. Just thought I should point that out.
The Collector's Collector Member since Feb 2012 3786 Points Moderator
Another reason why I suspect that, initially, economic conditions drove the reduction of 78 label size to 3" was that, in 1931-32, many Victor 78's were released with much smaller label size of 2.6875". They must've saved a lot of money on paper for printing the labels in that period which was in the depths of the Depression. The other factors came a bit later.
The Collector's Collector Member since Feb 2012 3786 Points Moderator
Neil Forbes wrote:
I should correct you on that last point on eccentric "trip" tracks on 45s, The W. & G.-processed "Golden Fleece Top Hits" 45s(and occasional 7" 33 &1/3 EPs) did indeed have the eccentric run-out "trip" track. Just thought I should point that out.
I do have a 45 with an eccentric run-out groove, from 1953 (a U.S. pressing, B.T.W.). Must've been at least one studio that cut 45 lacquers in that way. Also have a 45 EP on the Royale label of old John McCormack recordings cut with an eccentric run-out groove.