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Missing Charts 1940-52 book and Dates of 78's on 45worlds

9th Dec 2015, 11:08 PM		#1 REPORT
	Appletree1 SUBS ILR Top 40 charts please! Member since Mar 2015 81 Points	I would like like to bring to the attention of Users of this forum to the excellent dating evidence that the book by Steve Waters called British Hit Singles 1940 to 1952 can bring to the dating of UK 78rpm records located here. This book of charts is different to the other charts dated after 1952. For it lists the amounts of records that were sent out to record shops in the UK. Which means it's possible to know which month a 78 was issued. Records back then were released on the start of each month, there doesn't seem to be a particular week they came out. In other words it tells us which month the main distribution of each record started. The book shows the label and cat number of the records. First of all it does show that are lot of records included in the book are not listed in this forum, though sometimes they can be found in the USA format. However they might not have the same sides to the record issued in the UK. I have been using this site to track down some of the records in the book. I am sad to report that 45worlds has the months and in some cases the year for certain tracks mostly wrong. I will endeavour to add footnotes to any records I find in the future with the wrong dates. Some people who have read the book can't believe how little some of the records and charts don't relate to the Sheet Music charts that the public would have known about at the time. However this might be due to the fact that the bloke that originally compiled these charts wasn't very good at listing the correct "A" side. For example in December 1948 the book lists Doris Day & Buddy Clark - Love Somebody Columbia DB2449 in the top ten. If you look at the Sheet Music charts you see no mention of "Love Somebody". But if you look at the flip of the record you see just Buddy Clark singing "All Dressed Up With A Broken Heart". Which was in the top ten of the Sheet Music Chart in December 1948. This getting the wrong side is very common in the book, also in December 48 he lists Tony Martin and "Ah, But It Happens". Which I suspect many of you won't know. But the other side of the record is Begin The Beguine - which most will know. I hope this will help in dating records on here.

11th Dec 2015, 7:49 AM		#2 REPORT
	TopPopper Member since Mar 2013 2612 Points	I would advise caution when dating records by this book. My impression is that older 78s often had a long shelf-life compared to the fast turnover of 45s in later years, and so it's quite possible that a record could be counted for these 'charts' some time after release. If it's just inaccuracy in the uploading on this site, then there would be examples of 78 release dates both before and after the dates in the book - but I'm betting nearly every case has the 45 Worlds date earlier than the book - which is feasible.

13th Dec 2015, 7:28 PM		#3 REPORT
	Jock_Girl A girl who looks good in vinyl Member since Dec 2012 1544 Points Moderator	As far as 78s go -- the topic here has been a pet peeve of mine for a while. Year of release is more often than not 100% spot on. Month, I give it a 50/50. Actual day of month -- unless taken from record company log books, total guess and myth. I find it hard for anyone to say with 100% certainty that a particular 78 was released on, say, 20 September 1947. We may know the date it first entered the charts, we may know the day it was recorded, but given the infrastructure of the time to get it into the shops (there was no FedEx/ DHL then) such a pinpointed date is just a guess, IMHO Amy

15th Dec 2015, 11:10 PM		#4 REPORT
	Trainman Trainman Member since Jun 2014 2559 Points Moderator	FWIW, I've just started to get to cataloging my 78's, but for US release, the site that seems to me most reliable is the "DAHR" 78 archive maintained by the U. of Cal. Santa Barbara. http://adp.library.ucsb.edu Generally they have recording dates, matrix numbers, release dates, and even "cutout" dates I've also looked a lot at "78discography.com", but I get the impression they're more user driven, and it would seem to me about as reliable as discogs. Don't know if such sites would exist for UK releases but I would think so, especially at the various University libraries.

15th Dec 2015, 11:40 PM		#5 REPORT
	Jock_Girl A girl who looks good in vinyl Member since Dec 2012 1544 Points Moderator	Yes -- the DAHR is most excellent. I know of the people who have driven '78discography.com' and they are snobby know-it-alls who think they have the totality of the world's knowledge on 78s, yet given the things that I see there when compared with the actual records, show that they are quite sloppy and haphazard. On a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being most credible, I'd give them a 5. Amy Edited by moderator on 28th Dec 2015, 7:56 AM

15th Dec 2015, 11:46 PM		#6 REPORT
	Juke Jules SUBS Tell me he's lazy, tell me he's slow Member since Jan 2011 4138 Points Moderator	Hope someone will add DAHR to the sticky page of Useful Links

16th Dec 2015, 12:10 AM		#7 REPORT
	Trainman Trainman Member since Jun 2014 2559 Points Moderator	Juke Jules wrote: Hope someone will add DAHR to the sticky page of Useful Links ' Ask and ye shall receive Don

27th Jan 2016, 12:56 PM		#8 REPORT
	mister_tmg Also on 78rpm Member since Apr 2012 1118 Points	Hmmm, even as a chart collector, I haven't bought that book. I'm just too sceptical of the sources, although I might get it in future. So, Appletree, does the book actually list the dates the records were shipped into stores? If so that could be a reliable answer as to when they were released. The date a record entered the chart is not, because it could have been a slow burner. "Rose Marie" by Slim Whitman was issued about 8 months before it became a hit in the UK! Quote: For example in December 1948 the book lists Doris Day & Buddy Clark - Love Somebody Columbia DB2449 in the top ten. If you look at the Sheet Music charts you see no mention of "Love Somebody". But if you look at the flip of the record you see just Buddy Clark singing "All Dressed Up With A Broken Heart". Which was in the top ten of the Sheet Music Chart in December 1948. "All Dressed Up With A Broken Heart" isn't in the book First Hits which lists the sheet music hits from that era, though I can see it in my database - I know that other charts were discovered after that book came out. I'm not so sure you can say that either book has the "wrong side"... Quote: This getting the wrong side is very common in the book, also in December 48 he lists Tony Martin and "Ah, But It Happens". Which I suspect many of you won't know. But the other side of the record is Begin The Beguine - which most will know. It could just be that "Ah But it Happens" was more popular in Britain in 1948 than "Begin the Beguine". It's a bit like comparing apples and pears though, record sales vs sheet music. Back to dating records: First Hits (written by Brian Henson and Colin Morgan) IS an excellent resource for dating UK 78s of the period. I've discussed the dating of records recently with Brian (Colin is sadly deceased) and he said a variety of sources were used - original record company booklets, new release supplements, and they also went into the BBC Written Archives which had info. The bottom line is that Jock_Girl is correct - it's very hard to accurately date 78rpm records with certainty. Getting the month is often the closest you'll be, although different discographies will often be a month in or out of each other. As for the dates, it only seems to be with the dawn of the Beatles and their instant success with new records that you find 45s with a DAY of release. I do have a David Whitfield CD on the Eclipse label where the discography actually lists the full date of release for the records. I believe the compiler, John Tracy, has access to a large part of Decca's archives. The basic problem with dating old 78s is that the information is out there, but hoarded by old collectors who aren't engaged with sites like this (or even the internet!). "First Hits" has the month of release for all songs that entered the UK Sheet Music Chart from 1946 to 1959. There's also an encyclopedia called "The Ballad Years" by Don Wicks which has Singles Discographies for UK artists during that period. The book was only available to subscribers of the magazine In Tune International in the mid-1990s, so you won't find it on Amazon or eBay. However, he did later make it available as a CD-ROM with the book chapters in Word format - much easier for searching. The price of £10 was an absolute steal too. Don is now sadly passed on. I could upload the Word files to a site like Sendspace if the Mods don't mind. Original record company new release supplements are another source, on eBay and the like. The City of London Gramophone Society has also produced a series of label listings. They are pricey, but very thorough. Recording, release and deletion dates! http://www.clpgs.org.uk/label-discographies.html The other source for this stuff is Paul Pelletier's Record Information Services booklets, which used to pop up on eBay. All the above are more reliable sources than the date a record started selling and made the charts!

27th Jan 2016, 1:41 PM		#9 REPORT
	zabadak Caddacack oh da ca-caddacack, shy shy skagellack Member since Jun 2010 4156 Points	I have a 78 by Edgar Messiter - "Strawberry Roan"/"The Double-Breasted Mansion On The Square" - which appears to be a US radio copy (shellac-on-metal, acetate?). The "label" is listed as WHOO but that may be the radio station call-sign. Any ideas where I can find info about it, please? Wikiwoo - and the web in general - are of no obvious help...

27th Jan 2016, 2:02 PM		#10 REPORT
	mister_tmg Also on 78rpm Member since Apr 2012 1118 Points	No idea, but your profile slogan is very cheeky - not even George Formby would have gotten away with that!

15th Feb 2016, 5:39 PM		#11 REPORT
	Jock_Girl A girl who looks good in vinyl Member since Dec 2012 1544 Points Moderator	One book that I have found to be invaluable for dating records (at very teals from the standpoint of year) is Joel Whitburn's Pop Memories 1890-1954. While many of the 78 RPM elite look down upon it because they disagree with his methodology of determining chart position for early recordings nonetheless it is an invaluable source of determining the relative popularity of a song. My feeling is that you cannot realy on any one 'chart' to determine popularity, as at least in the USA, you have Billboard and Cashbox along with local radio charts. Even today with no real 'singles' market per se, the chart is nothing more than dice toss as far as I can tell. Amy

15th Feb 2016, 7:54 PM		#12 REPORT
	Trainman Trainman Member since Jun 2014 2559 Points Moderator	Jock_Girl wrote: One book that I have found to be invaluable for dating records (at very teals from the standpoint of year) is Joel Whitburn's Pop Memories 1890-1954. While many of the 78 RPM elite look down upon it because they disagree with his methodology of determining chart position for early recordings nonetheless it is an invaluable source of determining the relative popularity of a song. My feeling is that you cannot realy on any one 'chart' to determine popularity, as at least in the USA, you have Billboard and Cashbox along with local radio charts. Even today with no real 'singles' market per se, the chart is nothing more than dice toss as far as I can tell. Amy Joel basically goes by the various "Billboard" charts. His books are the "Bible" for broadcasters in the US. They are not good for release dates, since a record may be out for some time before it "charts".

9th Mar 2016, 3:03 AM		#13 REPORT
	Appletree1 SUBS ILR Top 40 charts please! Member since Mar 2015 81 Points	Just to add some further information on the Sheet Music thing. A chap called David Armstrong has not long ago published all the Sheet Music Charts from 1947 to 1959 in book form. It's available on Amazon. You will find the title I mentioned in that book. The First Hits book is not very accurate on the dates of releases. It was published retrospectively adding release dates they could find. Colin Brown's charts were done at the time and he was able to source the information from the publishers. He was not allowed to publish the charts at the time, because he worked for a record company and he was sworn to a confidentiality agreement with them. According to Colin's Charts, records were sent out in the first two weeks of each month. He records no new records entering on the other weeks of each month. I consider the book to be more accurate than the Sheet Music charts, but it does have it's faults. It unlikely that the distribution of some of the records stopped, when Colin's book shows they did. Especially as some of the records, were stopped while the title was still top of the Sheet Music chart. Doris Day's for example "It's Magic" in 1949 is removed when it was number two in Colin's Chart! But you do have to bare in mind that what Colin's Book shows is records being sent out to shops. It doesn't mean they sold huge amounts, even if Colin says a record was number one for several weeks! Even so I do think that this chart book is an excellent source for release dates. Much better than a Record Company Catalogue, or the First Hits book.

9th Mar 2016, 6:10 PM		#14 REPORT
	Pridesale Member since Mar 2013 805 Points	Is that source for US or UK releases. Shipping in first two weeks generally makes sense for these bulky items where batch production would be most effective . But this would somewhat assume that there is a minimum run for each release = record shop numbers x est sales per shop. Presumably with a&r chaps guessing popular titles/ artists. Presumably film tie-in discs would run to different tie in dates in month?

10th Mar 2016, 6:32 PM		#15 REPORT
	Appletree1 SUBS ILR Top 40 charts please! Member since Mar 2015 81 Points	UK only. The book is called British Hit Singles 1940 to 1952. By the way I understand that the charts that Colin Brown did extend a little bit more into 1952. But as the book was done with the OCC, they presumably didn't want to show the clash with the NME charts that started in 1952.

12th Mar 2016, 1:40 AM		#16 REPORT
	scrough 🍰 No picture 'cos I'm not into 45rpm :( Member since Jan 2013 3429 Points Moderator	mister_tmg wrote: The basic problem with dating old 78s is that the information is out there, but hoarded by old collectors who aren't engaged with sites like this (or even the internet!). Not quite true, as many monthly release sheets are available on ebay, although in the last few years the dealers have moved in and many of the prices are now stupid (although I suspect they don't sell too many) and some sellers are basing their start price on these stupidities. I'm still buying at reasonable prices ie £1 or less for a monthly sheet, £5 or less for an annual catalogue. mister_tmg wrote: The City of London Gramophone Society has also produced a series of label listings. They are pricey, but very thorough. Recording, release and deletion dates! http://www.clpgs.org.uk/label-discographies.html Generally yes, but they often contain errors. You have to remember that many of these label listings were produced over decades, and sometimes relied on people reporting their ownership of a record - which was often slightly 'coloured'. And as I've said before, the monthly lists often used for these listings are fairly free in their use of titles and artist names to fit the available print space. Discography is not an exact science!

12th Mar 2016, 1:32 PM		#17 REPORT
	scrough 🍰 No picture 'cos I'm not into 45rpm :( Member since Jan 2013 3429 Points Moderator	And by coincidence I received an email from one of these 'old collectors' today: reference parlophone F100 series,do you want a list of release dates ,because i have more or less all of them.there are only two i dont have ,F2220 and F2311. It's up to us 'younger' folks to help these people. Many don't have enough computer knowledge to publish their 'hoardings' netwide, and as I'm only too aware, it requires a lot of hard work to convert their paper based work.

15th Mar 2016, 9:24 PM		#18 REPORT
	mister_tmg Also on 78rpm Member since Apr 2012 1118 Points	Appletree wrote: Just to add some further information on the Sheet Music thing. A chap called David Armstrong has not long ago published all the Sheet Music Charts from 1947 to 1959 in book form. It's available on Amazon. You will find the title I mentioned in that book. Coincidentally, the period covered by First Hits. Well, that book doesn't feature the weekly charts, but the info would be the same. Quote: The First Hits book is not very accurate on the dates of releases. How do you know? The people who did that book were very thorough with their research. I know one of them personally. You are assuming that Colin Brown's word is gospel. He was infamously unreliable amongst collectors. Just because he says he did something, does not mean it is true. You haven't seen his original research (but feel free to correct me). You think his book is better than Record Company Catalogues? We're talking about notes a guy made over 60 years ago which weren't published until after his death. I'm highly sceptical.

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