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The Twin

7th Apr 2021, 8:32 PM		#1 REPORT
	Stephen Harris Member since Mar 2021 193 Points	Admin/Moderator opinion required please... I am just about to add a batch of "The Twin" entries and I need some advice. I understand that "The Twin" label ran from 1908 to circa June 1911 when Zonophone took over the brand. Zonophone Twin produced new recordings and also reissued some "The Twin" recordings with a Zonophone Twin label. The tricky part is how to catalogue "The Twin" records. a. Early 1908 records had different numbers on A-side and B-side, format T-9999. These tend to have been catalogued here with the two T- numbers from the two sides. b. Later 1908 onwards The Twin introduced a single 'Ser' number per record on the label. These are catalogued here as the Ser number. c. There was a short overlap where The Twin records may or may not have a Ser number on the label. e.g. https://www.45worlds.com/78rpm/record/t5039t5040 This entry sometimes has a Ser 45 on the label. But it was catalogued with the two T-numbers, probably because the Ser variant wasn't known at the time. From June 1911 Zonophone Twin reissued some of The Twin records with a Ser number which was not present on the original The Twin release labels. Sometimes this Zonophone Twin Ser number has been added here as a comment to the 'type a' The Twin entries, which seems a useful addition. There is one The Twin entry where the Zonophone Twin Ser number seems to have been used as The Twin catalogue number retrospectively. https://www.45worlds.com/78rpm/record/nc636475uk Should this be our standard approach? i.e. we should re-catalogue any 'type a.' The Twin entries with the Ser number from their Zonophone Twin equivalents where known. Or should we stick to only Ser numbers that are actually found on The Twin labels? Either approach could work but it should be applied consistently and it doesn't seem to be at the moment. Thanks for your advice.

7th Apr 2021, 11:18 PM		#2 REPORT
	Redpunk SUBS Crates Are For Digging Member since Aug 2012 25322 Points Moderator	Having relooked at this one I would consider the approach to be if serial no. on label this to be primary no. if no serial the A side T no. as primary and then B side T no. as additional if later serial no. known add as additional cat. no. and on the serial no. labels add the T no.s as additional cat. no.s. Also when adding additional Cat. No.s add this way e.g. T-1333 / T-1334

8th Apr 2021, 1:06 AM		#3 REPORT
	JLC135 Member since Aug 2014 2720 Points Moderator	Stephen Harris wrote: Should this be our standard approach? i.e. we should re-catalogue any 'type a.' The Twin entries with the Ser number from their Zonophone Twin equivalents where known. I'd prefer, if pre Serial labels exist, the earlier numbers to be listed first before the Serial number. Redpunk wrote: .. if serial no. on label this to be primary no. I wouldn't worry about adding the T- numbers for these ones. Redpunk wrote: .. if no serial the A side T no. as primary and then B side T no. as additional Add the lower of the two T- numbers when adding the record. The other can be added after via the 'Add Missing Info' link at the bottom of the record's page (if added together as one Cat#, the second number isn't individually searchable - whereas ones added additionally are!).

8th Apr 2021, 1:11 AM		#4 REPORT
	Stephen Harris Member since Mar 2021 193 Points	Redpunk wrote: Having relooked at this one I would consider the approach to be if serial no. on label this to be primary no. if no serial the A side T no. as primary and then B side T no. as additional if later serial no. known add as additional cat. no. and on the serial no. labels add the T no.s as additional cat. no.s. Also when adding additional Cat. No.s add this way e.g. T-1333 / T-1334 Thanks Redpunk, I think we are in agreement! Fortunately most of my The Twin records have a Ser on the label, so I have created the entry using that as Catalogue, and added the T-numbers as additional Cat numbers afterwards. Is there a way to add additional Cat numbers during the initial entry creation or does it have to be done via an 'additional information' update afterwards? For the couple that don't have Ser on the label, I have added them with the first T-number as Catalogue, and added the other T-number as additional Cat number afterwards. I see you've corrected https://www.45worlds.com/78rpm/record/nc636475uk to the new standard so looking good.

8th Apr 2021, 1:17 AM		#5 REPORT
	Stephen Harris Member since Mar 2021 193 Points	JLC135 wrote: Add the lower of the two T- numbers when adding the record. The other can be added after via the 'Add Missing Info' link at the bottom of the record's page (if added together as one Cat#, the second number isn't individually searchable - whereas ones added additionally are!). That's interesting... thanks JLC135. It's how I've been doing it so far - I wondered if the additional Cat# could be included during the initial add but if adding them afterwards means they can be searched then I'll keep doing it that way!

8th Apr 2021, 2:18 AM		#6 REPORT
	Redpunk SUBS Crates Are For Digging Member since Aug 2012 25322 Points Moderator	Yes you are both correct the additional numbers have to be added via add missing info the point I was trying to get over when adding more than one Cat. no. via missing info to add as T-1333 / T-1334 instead of T-1333, T-1334 to be in line with house style. As for adding T numbers where there is a serial number as additional cat. no.s it's not strictly needed but does no harm.

8th Apr 2021, 11:32 AM		#7 REPORT
	Stephen Harris Member since Mar 2021 193 Points	Redpunk wrote: the point I was trying to get over when adding more than one Cat. no. via missing info to add as T-1333 / T-1334 instead of T-1333, T-1334 to be in line with house style. Ah yes, hands up that was me! My thought process was that the record Catalogue was either the Ser number for the whole disc, or the T-numbers of each side. Hence adding them as 99 / T-1234, T-1235 i.e. Ser of whole disk / Side-a, Side-b. However, I would rather stick to house styles than do my own thing in future... I see you have fixed all of my entries, so thank you for that! One other thing. I believe there is a list with release dates for all The Twin records but I can't find a copy online. If you know where it is I will happily update all my 'year only' entries to include full date of release which will make them a lot easier to find in the discography as it currently splits those with year only ahead of those with full date. Thanks.

8th Apr 2021, 3:50 PM		#8 REPORT
	scrough No picture 'cos I'm not into 45rpm :( Member since Jan 2013 3428 Points Moderator	All Twin discs were issued with serials rather than T side numbers from the beginning in the Aug 1908 catalogue. Unfortunately they omitted the serials from the early record labels! We don't have a list of dates, but we do have software that runs on Windows PCs and gives release dates for many UK labels. See this thread. Its probably best to download the integrated program - Date78.zip.

8th Apr 2021, 4:32 PM		#9 REPORT
	Stephen Harris Member since Mar 2021 193 Points	scrough wrote: We don't have a list of dates, but we do have software that runs on Windows PCs and gives release dates for many UK labels. See this thread. Its probably best to download the integrated program - Date78.zip. That's perfect timing! I'm about to add "Cinch" record 5008, and I have been finding conflicting release date information for it. I will now use your programme/data for this record release date, which is consistent with the existing entries in the Cinch discography here.- I wondered where they came from, now I know! So my Cinch 5008 release date is September 1913. That's great. "The almost complete 78 rpm record dating guide (II)" by Steven C. Barr has a list for Cinch on page 123 but they don't quite match yours. 5000....2/13 5060....6/13 5190....1/14 etc. which would put 5008 between Feb and June 1913. Your list seems be based on more accurate and granular source data than this, good stuff!

8th Apr 2021, 5:02 PM		#10 REPORT
	Stephen Harris Member since Mar 2021 193 Points	Scrough, I'm really finding your Date78 program really useful. Can it be added to the "78RPM: Useful Links" forum topic?

8th Apr 2021, 11:00 PM		#11 REPORT
	JLC135 Member since Aug 2014 2720 Points Moderator	scrough wrote: All Twin discs were issued with serials rather than T side numbers from the beginning in the Aug 1908 catalogue. Unfortunately they omitted the serials from the early record labels! [sigh] Of course they were... (It's always got to be complicated, doesn't it.)

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