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| 14th Apr 2024, 12:28 PM | #1 REPORT | |
 | Mike Wilson1 Musicologist Member since Dec 2019 26 Points | The book “British Hit Singles – January 1940 – October 1952 The Missing Charts by Steve Walters was published in 2013 and I, along with many other enthusiasts, welcomed with open arms the chance to confirm the “charts” of the war years with concrete evidence……..Initially I read the book from cover before deciding that it would not be too difficult a task to collect at least a recording of all the songs mentioned in the book, to have as a library all the recordings of that era…..Here we are some 11 years later and the project has still not been finalised. I was led on many a wild goose chase by wrong information, wrong titles, wrong artists, wrong catalogue numbers etc but set forth with a will to firstly go through my own extensive collection and contacting other collectors to begin the huge task of making a catalogue of the books content and after listing & consecutively recording a few thousand sides got down to the fact that of all the recordings made between 1940 -1949, I now had all but 32 of them……And so began the quest for the 32 sides that for one reason or another had eluded me……Trusting that the book was basically correct was still fraught with some danger as I used as a yardstick the fact that I had to have physically seen the record or a photograph of the record to believe it was available somewhere…..Found 15 photographs from the list of 32……Which meant there were 17 tracks that I could not find nor see a photo of the record……This is getting difficult !!!!......So that 32 !!!.....9 from Turner Layton, 7 from Joe Loss, 5 from Billy Cotton, 2 from Geraldo & His Orchestra and one each from Issy Bonn, Phyllis Robins, Beryl Davis, Billy Thorburn (as The Orchestra, The Dance Band & Me), The RAF Dance Band Orchestra, Jay Wilbur, Eric Winstone, Cyril Stapleton and The Squadronaires……..No idea why Turner Layton should be so difficult to locate nor why amongst the many releases by Joe Loss, 7 should be hiding !!.........Am I the first to try to do this ?......Did you start and give up ???.......What pitfalls came your way ?.....What was your hardest to locate ?......If anyone can help me locate any of the 32, I am happy to post a list |
| 14th Apr 2024, 5:54 PM | #2 REPORT | |
 | mister_tmg Also on 78rpm Member since Apr 2012 1118 Points | How many records listed in the book don’t actually exist? |
| 14th Apr 2024, 8:31 PM | #3 REPORT | |
| Pridesale ● Member since Mar 2013 805 Points | tmg , we have been along the route before. 1) possible "registration" (ie of printing of source doxs muddling some things. 2) it is mainly of WW2 1940-1942 which was a mix of materials shortages, a request for returns of unwanted discs for re-use to make new discs 3) many of the "cover" versions didnt sell as much as the main name associate with the lead promoted track 4) WW2 amounts of bombing in urban areas just lost a lot of items in collections 5) IF they sold in less hit rural areas they will turn up (if not broken or lost in the 1950s/60s/70s) but the house clearances are getting less. Perhaps starting 20 years ago some ability to look through the odd obscure antique shop resellers might find something, - there is one near me bought in cheap 78s from auction but it takes time to sort through them and they dont keep things in good order or display. 6) Mis-attributes where the backing band OR the main artist have got noted in the boo, but it is displayed or printed differently on the disc. 7) It might be that items might turn up in australia/canada / US if post war emigrants to the new lands of opportunity took their stuff with them ( or another loss if they didnt ) 8) It is worth looking through old editions of The Gramophone magazine for further information on reported issues. |
| 14th Apr 2024, 8:54 PM | #4 REPORT | |
| Mike Wilson1 Musicologist Member since Dec 2019 26 Points |
mister_tmg wrote:
How many records listed in the book don’t actually exist?
1. Nobody I know has the record 2. There are no pictures/photographs of the record 3. The Title could be an error or the artist throwing all into total confusion 4. I get it that they are in catalogues etc with issue dates and catalogue numbers but I have yet to see 100% proof that these exist somewhere |
| 14th Apr 2024, 9:08 PM | #5 REPORT | |
| mister_tmg Also on 78rpm Member since Apr 2012 1118 Points |
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
mister_tmg wrote:
How many records listed in the book don’t actually exist?
1. Nobody I know has the record 2. There are no pictures/photographs of the record 3. The Title could be an error or the artist throwing all into total confusion 4. I get it that they are in catalogues etc with issue dates and catalogue numbers but I have yet to see 100% proof that these exist somewhere My question was really applying to number 4: how many of these records are not verified as existing, either with photographic evidence or in a catalogue. These can be original catalogues or advertisements, or latter day label discographies. |
| 14th Apr 2024, 9:25 PM | #6 REPORT | |
| Mike Wilson1 Musicologist Member since Dec 2019 26 Points |
mister_tmg wrote:
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
mister_tmg wrote:
How many records listed in the book don’t actually exist?
1. Nobody I know has the record 2. There are no pictures/photographs of the record 3. The Title could be an error or the artist throwing all into total confusion 4. I get it that they are in catalogues etc with issue dates and catalogue numbers but I have yet to see 100% proof that these exist somewhere My question was really applying to number 4: how many of these records are not verified as existing, either with photographic evidence or in a catalogue. These can be original catalogues or advertisements, or latter day label discographies. That's easy......0........There are catalogue entries or advertisements for all the ones I do not have |
| 14th Apr 2024, 10:07 PM | #7 REPORT | |
| mister_tmg Also on 78rpm Member since Apr 2012 1118 Points | But what about in the book? Aren’t there some entries for records which don’t seem to exist? For example, Turner Layton’s This is Worth Fighting For? I don’t think the artist or title matched the given catalogue number. |
| 15th Apr 2024, 12:42 AM | #8 REPORT | |
| Mike Wilson1 Musicologist Member since Dec 2019 26 Points |
mister_tmg wrote:
But what about in the book? Aren’t there some entries for records which don’t seem to exist? For example, Turner Layton’s This is Worth Fighting For? I don’t think the artist or title matched the given catalogue number.
That's right.....As I said before, there are many examples of wrong titles, artists and catalogue numbers....The one you mentioned should be "This Is No Laughing Matter" |
| 15th Apr 2024, 12:58 AM | #9 REPORT | |
| Mike Wilson1 Musicologist Member since Dec 2019 26 Points |
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
mister_tmg wrote:
But what about in the book? Aren’t there some entries for records which don’t seem to exist? For example, Turner Layton’s This is Worth Fighting For? I don’t think the artist or title matched the given catalogue number.
That's right.....As I said before, there are many examples of wrong titles, artists and catalogue numbers....The one you mentioned should be "This Is No Laughing Matter"[/quote Am happy to pass on any other information that you may have queries for about other incorrect titles etc |
| 15th Apr 2024, 8:53 AM | #10 REPORT | |
| danceband91 Member since Nov 2020 119 Points |
mister_tmg wrote:
How many records listed in the book don’t actually exist?
More concerning are instances where records are credited as charting before they were released. I've found a total of 19 such records where I have a definite release or recording date that contradicts the book, and another 75 or so where I still need to find an accurate release date to confirm (although I suspect the majority of these will turn out to be ok). Mike Wilson1 wrote:
Found 15 photographs from the list of 32……Which meant there were 17 tracks that I could not find nor see a photo of the record…
|
| 15th Apr 2024, 10:47 AM | #11 REPORT | |
| Mike Wilson1 Musicologist Member since Dec 2019 26 Points |
danceband91 wrote:
mister_tmg wrote:
How many records listed in the book don’t actually exist?
More concerning are instances where records are credited as charting before they were released. I've found a total of 19 such records where I have a definite release or recording date that contradicts the book, and another 75 or so where I still need to find an accurate release date to confirm (although I suspect the majority of these will turn out to be ok). Mike Wilson1 wrote:
Found 15 photographs from the list of 32……Which meant there were 17 tracks that I could not find nor see a photo of the record…
But it does help very much !! These are the records that fit both criteria of not being able to locate nor ever seen a photograph of: My Daddy – Phyllis Robins Parlophone F 1703 Dreaming – Beryl Davis Decca F 7472 If Tears Could Bring You Back – Billy Thorburn (The Organ, The Dance Band & Me) Parlophone F 1786 Do You Care – Geraldo & His Orchestra Parlophone F 1889 By Candlelight – Turner Layton Columbia FB 2771 You Are My Sunshine – Billy Cotton Rex R 10115 I Don’t Want To Walk Without You – Joe Loss HMV BD 5742 I’m Thinking Tonight Of My Ble Eyes – Jay Wilbur Rex R 10187 Heavenly Music – Turner Layton Columbia FB 2973 Don’t Ask Me Why/Thinking About The Wabash – Joe Loss HMV BD 5838 Spring Will Be A Little Late This Year – Turner Layton Columbia FB 3058 Together – Turner Layton Columbia FB 3100 Panda Walk – Billy Cotton Rex R 10236 Anniversary Song – Billy Cotton Rex R 10238 Gotta Get Me Somebody To Love – Turner Layton Columbia FB 3334 Shoemaker’s Serenade – Squadronaires Decca F 8297 |
| 15th Apr 2024, 12:12 PM | #12 REPORT | |
| danceband91 Member since Nov 2020 119 Points |
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
My Daddy – Phyllis Robins Parlophone F 1703
Dreaming – Beryl Davis Decca F 7472 If Tears Could Bring You Back – Billy Thorburn (The Organ, The Dance Band & Me) Parlophone F 1786 Do You Care – Geraldo & His Orchestra Parlophone F 1889 By Candlelight – Turner Layton Columbia FB 2771 You Are My Sunshine – Billy Cotton Rex R 10115 I Don’t Want To Walk Without You – Joe Loss HMV BD 5742 I’m Thinking Tonight Of My Ble Eyes – Jay Wilbur Rex R 10187 Heavenly Music – Turner Layton Columbia FB 2973 Don’t Ask Me Why/Thinking About The Wabash – Joe Loss HMV BD 5838 Spring Will Be A Little Late This Year – Turner Layton Columbia FB 3058 Together – Turner Layton Columbia FB 3100 Panda Walk – Billy Cotton Rex R 10236 Anniversary Song – Billy Cotton Rex R 10238 Gotta Get Me Somebody To Love – Turner Layton Columbia FB 3334 Shoemaker’s Serenade – Squadronaires Decca F 8297 I must have miscalculated slightly, but I do have photos of 3 of these: Rex 10115 (A only), FB-2973 (A only) and HMV BD-5838 (both sides). I'll email them over to you. |
| 15th Apr 2024, 12:45 PM | #13 REPORT | |
| Mike Wilson1 Musicologist Member since Dec 2019 26 Points |
danceband91 wrote:
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
My Daddy – Phyllis Robins Parlophone F 1703
Dreaming – Beryl Davis Decca F 7472 If Tears Could Bring You Back – Billy Thorburn (The Organ, The Dance Band & Me) Parlophone F 1786 Do You Care – Geraldo & His Orchestra Parlophone F 1889 By Candlelight – Turner Layton Columbia FB 2771 You Are My Sunshine – Billy Cotton Rex R 10115 I Don’t Want To Walk Without You – Joe Loss HMV BD 5742 I’m Thinking Tonight Of My Ble Eyes – Jay Wilbur Rex R 10187 Heavenly Music – Turner Layton Columbia FB 2973 Don’t Ask Me Why/Thinking About The Wabash – Joe Loss HMV BD 5838 Spring Will Be A Little Late This Year – Turner Layton Columbia FB 3058 Together – Turner Layton Columbia FB 3100 Panda Walk – Billy Cotton Rex R 10236 Anniversary Song – Billy Cotton Rex R 10238 Gotta Get Me Somebody To Love – Turner Layton Columbia FB 3334 Shoemaker’s Serenade – Squadronaires Decca F 8297 I must have miscalculated slightly, but I do have photos of 3 of these: Rex 10115 (A only), FB-2973 (A only) and HMV BD-5838 (both sides). I'll email them over to you. Many many thanks ....that leaves only 13 that I have never seen, heard or seen pictorial evidence of.....I'm getting there !!!......Do you have any of the missing 32 sides in your collection ? |
| 15th Apr 2024, 1:07 PM | #14 REPORT | |
| danceband91 Member since Nov 2020 119 Points |
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
Many many thanks ....that leaves only 13 that I have never seen, heard or seen pictorial evidence of.....I'm getting there !!!......Do you have any of the missing 32 sides in your collection ?
I've sent over the photos now. And no I don't have any of the 32 sides in my collection. I went through over a thousand 78s in a junk shop last week, but no luck - I'll keep on looking though! |
| 15th Apr 2024, 4:51 PM | #15 REPORT | |
| mister_tmg Also on 78rpm Member since Apr 2012 1118 Points |
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
mister_tmg wrote:
But what about in the book? Aren’t there some entries for records which don’t seem to exist? For example, Turner Layton’s This is Worth Fighting For? I don’t think the artist or title matched the given catalogue number.
That's right.....As I said before, there are many examples of wrong titles, artists and catalogue numbers....The one you mentioned should be "This Is No Laughing Matter" Ah - “This Is No Laughing Matter” is the correct title then, it seems? Somehow they got the first two words right, but not the rest… so that entry could be described as a typo, rather than one which doesn’t exist at all? |
| 15th Apr 2024, 5:03 PM | #16 REPORT | |
| mister_tmg Also on 78rpm Member since Apr 2012 1118 Points |
danceband91 wrote:
mister_tmg wrote:
How many records listed in the book don’t actually exist?
More concerning are instances where records are credited as charting before they were released. I've found a total of 19 such records where I have a definite release or recording date that contradicts the book, and another 75 or so where I still need to find an accurate release date to confirm (although I suspect the majority of these will turn out to be ok). Mike Wilson1 wrote:
Found 15 photographs from the list of 32……Which meant there were 17 tracks that I could not find nor see a photo of the record…
Thanks for clarifying, Peter. I had thought that some of the entries in the book related to recordings which are “fictional”. Perhaps the errors are more like the above example, in which the titles are partially wrong. If an artist entry actually showed a release which turned out to be by a different artist, then that is concerning, although I suppose it could just be ascribed to the correct artist. I look forward to your list of errors. It would be good if the chart hits from the book were listed online or in digital format somewhere. The incorrect release dates are indeed concerning, though I think these could often be a month out, unless you’re getting the info from an original record company release advertisement or leaflet. Regarding the photos, even if you can’t afford to have the tracks transcribed, you could view the records for free at the British Library if you have a reader pass (they’ll also let you listen to them on-site if you give enough notice). I’ve checked many of the Bob and Alf Pearson 78s, to gather discography information from the labels and wax. I don’t think there’s anything to stop you from photographing the records. I could perhaps do that for the 78s we’re talking about, given both of you are quite far from the British Library. King’s College might be prepared to take photos of the ones they have too. |
| 15th Apr 2024, 5:06 PM | #17 REPORT | |
| mister_tmg Also on 78rpm Member since Apr 2012 1118 Points |
danceband91 wrote:
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
Many many thanks ....that leaves only 13 that I have never seen, heard or seen pictorial evidence of.....I'm getting there !!!......Do you have any of the missing 32 sides in your collection ?
I've sent over the photos now. And no I don't have any of the 32 sides in my collection. I went through over a thousand 78s in a junk shop last week, but no luck - I'll keep on looking though! That is a mammoth task… I’ve gone through many piles of unsorted 78s myself! Are all the “missing” 78s added to this site, or at least the ones we know definitely exist? You could add the photos, Peter. |
| 15th Apr 2024, 8:03 PM | #18 REPORT | |
| danceband91 Member since Nov 2020 119 Points |
mister_tmg wrote:
I look forward to your list of errors. It would be good if the chart hits from the book were listed online or in digital format somewhere. The incorrect release dates are indeed concerning, though I think these could often be a month out, unless you’re getting the info from an original record company release advertisement or leaflet.
mister_tmg wrote:
Are all the “missing” 78s added to this site, or at least the ones we know definitely exist? You could add the photos, Peter.
|
| 15th Apr 2024, 8:16 PM | #19 REPORT | |
| Mike Wilson1 Musicologist Member since Dec 2019 26 Points |
danceband91 wrote:
mister_tmg wrote:
I look forward to your list of errors. It would be good if the chart hits from the book were listed online or in digital format somewhere. The incorrect release dates are indeed concerning, though I think these could often be a month out, unless you’re getting the info from an original record company release advertisement or leaflet.
mister_tmg wrote:
Are all the “missing” 78s added to this site, or at least the ones we know definitely exist? You could add the photos, Peter.
So of the total of 2325 records listed in the book, I have managed to trace recordings of all but 48 of them, a great task and so near to a final result, I have a feeling that I will get to the lower twenties on my wants list but there will still be a shortfall when I go to that Record Shop in the sky.....danceband91 and mister_tmg were a fantastic help and still are but this is now getting to be really difficult......I hope that my advert in next month's magazine will open the floodgates |
| 15th Apr 2024, 8:29 PM | #20 REPORT | |
| mister_tmg Also on 78rpm Member since Apr 2012 1118 Points | You mean Memory Lane magazine? |
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45worlds for music, movies, books etc : 45cat for 7" singles : 45spaces for hundreds more worlds