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| Bootleg: flag or dropdown? discuss |
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| 16th Sep 2013, 5:01 PM | #1 REPORT | |
 | janiejjones Member since Aug 2011 4920 Points Moderator | I have, like always, just after submitting been wondering about the correct use, no, not of soap, but flag against dropdown for bootlegs. Is is necessary/policy/desired to use it double? Is there a distinct use for either one? Thanks JJJ |
| 17th Sep 2013, 12:53 PM | #2 REPORT | |
 | Juke Jules SUBS Tell me he's lazy, tell me he's slow Member since Jan 2011 4138 Points Moderator | Do you mean you want to add a double album which is a bootleg? It should be shown as a bootleg, then it will show correctly in the discography. We should be able to see that it is a double |
| 17th Sep 2013, 1:32 PM | #3 REPORT | |
| janiejjones Member since Aug 2011 4920 Points Moderator | No, what I meant is: use the Boot flag for country as well as the format Bootleg/repro, or any combination thereof? The flag only for unknown countries, or all? Or is the distinction more along the lines of "flag" means "classic" bootlegs, e.g. unauthirised live recordings/studio outtakes etc. and the format is for counterfeits pretending to be the real product? |
| 17th Sep 2013, 1:51 PM | #4 REPORT | |
 | nboldock Lend me ten pounds and I'll buy you a drink. Member since Feb 2012 7198 Points Moderator | All bootlegs should be under format "Bootleg/Repro". Personally I would only use the Bootleg country flag where the country is unknown / impossible to verify or if perhaps it was freely available across the world (as is the case with many recent boots, due to the nature of online retail). Where the boot can be assigned to a specific country, I think it should be. For example: this album. I may be wrong, of course. Edited by nboldock on 17th Sep 2013, 1:51 PM |
| 17th Sep 2013, 4:56 PM | #5 REPORT | |
 | Dr Doom SUBS I wanna eat an artichoke once in a while Member since Feb 2008 25247 Points Administrator | I think all bootlegs should go under the pirate flag and hopefully one day we can maybe even dispense with bootleg as a format. It keeps them all in one place and the country of origin has always been a minefield seen as many of them try to disguise their origins as much as possible! |
| 17th Sep 2013, 7:04 PM | #6 REPORT | |
| janiejjones Member since Aug 2011 4920 Points Moderator | So the flag it is (or was, used it for all), and for format I will use "LP" or whatever is appropriate. |
| 18th Sep 2013, 9:12 AM | #7 REPORT | |
| nboldock Lend me ten pounds and I'll buy you a drink. Member since Feb 2012 7198 Points Moderator | Without wishing to play Devil's advocate, I'm not sure I agree with this route. Clearly there are oodles of bootlegs/repros that are impossible to assign to one country or another, particularly recent ones and particularly direct copies of actual releases (i.e. designed to look exactly like the real thing) and in these cases the pirate flag is of course really useful. As we know modern day boots are flogged mostly through the internet so a country of release may not strictly exist anyway, but going back to the 60s-90s this wouldn't be the case. However if we can say for sure that a record is from a certain country (as in the example above), why do we not want to include that information? Sure we can (and would) add it in the Notes but by entering the country as "Bootleg" aren't we doing away with one of the methods a user would use to find the record? And aren't we wilfully leaving out information that we include for every other release (i.e. country of release)? Another example would be this. I recently acquired a Japanese Rolling Stones bootleg (titled Hot Rocks, but not the same as the official release of that name). Now, if a Stones collector were to look for it on here, wouldn't they look under Japan for a release that is *definitely* Japanese? (Actually they won't find it anyway as I haven't got it anymore, but no doubt it will arrive on here one day). Keeping them "in one place" is a good point and I'd agree it is useful to do so, but the "Bootleg/Repro" format already fulfils that aim. Obviously I will go with what Admin decides (you's da boss) but I just wanted to put over an alternative view for possible discussion. Edited by nboldock on 18th Sep 2013, 9:13 AM |
| 18th Sep 2013, 11:44 AM | #8 REPORT | |
 | Orbiting Cat Member since Jan 2008 1183 Points Administrator | The confusion is that there are at least 3 types of "bootleg": unauthorised releases such as the Japanese compilation you linked to, traditional bootlegs of unreleased/live material, and counterfeit reproductions. I can see the argument for unauthorised releases having the country set, but not the others. Edited by Orbiting Cat on 18th Sep 2013, 3:05 PM |
| 18th Sep 2013, 11:47 AM | #9 REPORT | |
| nboldock Lend me ten pounds and I'll buy you a drink. Member since Feb 2012 7198 Points Moderator |
Orbiting Cat wrote:
The confusion is that there are at least 3 types of "bootleg": unauthorised releases such as the Japanese compilation you linked to, traditional bootlegs of unreleased material, and counterfeit reproductions.
Yes, that is a good point I suppose. And those three types are quite different, really. |
| 18th Sep 2013, 2:49 PM | #10 REPORT | |
 | TopPopper Member since Mar 2013 2612 Points | Couterfeit reproductions should perhaps be classed as pirate copies, even when they are aimed at collectors rather than for general sale. |
| 19th Sep 2013, 9:38 PM | #11 REPORT | |
 | John davey Member since Jan 2013 227 Points | No matter what type of bootleg it is, I want to know its country of origin if it is information that is avaiable. Why would we not want to list country of origin even if it's a boot repro of an official release? |
| 20th Sep 2013, 7:47 PM | #12 REPORT | |
| TopPopper Member since Mar 2013 2612 Points | I'm sitting firmly on the fence with the flag/drop-down issue, but where boot repros of official releases go, I don't think they should be listed. Unless they're different, that is, like say a picture disc edition of a standard LP, or if they have extra tracks etc, But just a straight-forward illegal reproduction of some rare recard, I don't think needs an entry. |
| 20th Sep 2013, 8:33 PM | #13 REPORT | |
| nboldock Lend me ten pounds and I'll buy you a drink. Member since Feb 2012 7198 Points Moderator |
TopPopper wrote:
I'm sitting firmly on the fence with the flag/drop-down issue, but where boot repros of official releases go, I don't think they should be listed. Unless they're different, that is, like say a picture disc edition of a standard LP, or if they have extra tracks etc, But just a straight-forward illegal reproduction of some rare recard, I don't think needs an entry.
Take your point, but we do need to acknowledge the existence of such things, or we aren't presenting a complete picture. In the future it is highly possibly (likely?) that we will be the definitive online guide to vinyl (et al) and we need to be as definitive as possible, within the constraints of our "user friendly" model. |
| 21st Sep 2013, 11:31 AM | #14 REPORT | |
| janiejjones Member since Aug 2011 4920 Points Moderator |
nboldock wrote:
TopPopper wrote:
I'm sitting firmly on the fence with the flag/drop-down issue, but where boot repros of official releases go, I don't think they should be listed. Unless they're different, that is, like say a picture disc edition of a standard LP, or if they have extra tracks etc, But just a straight-forward illegal reproduction of some rare recard, I don't think needs an entry.
Take your point, but we do need to acknowledge the existence of such things, or we aren't presenting a complete picture. In the future it is highly possibly (likely?) that we will be the definitive online guide to vinyl (et al) and we need to be as definitive as possible, within the constraints of our "user friendly" model. On this I would think the easiest way out would be our ever popular solution "put in notes". Honestly, if it is a really "true" counterfeit, you would not have anything different beside perhaps the runouts, but then how would you know in the first place? If it is recognizable (like with one or two of mine) because the artwork has been copied badly, a scan with an explanation would suffice. My problem is with those classic boots, live and outtakes, where there is nearly no information on the product, the runouts nearly empty, and all one has is the "look and feel" of a typical well known manufacturer's or country's output, but nothing more. Often, presumably, produced in a differnent country from the "originator" for "release", e.g. sale, all over Europe, or the world even. I could well live with "notes" for country for these, and have format "LP". |
| 21st Sep 2013, 1:05 PM | #15 REPORT | |
| TopPopper Member since Mar 2013 2612 Points | Check this one out as an example: http://www.45worlds.com/vinyl/album/vjlp1062 This is apparently a US issue. It reproduces a genuine US LP. Should it be removed from the US section and put under the bootleg flag instead? Personally, I think it should go on the page for the official release, but be marked as a counterfeit, with notes. |
| 21st Sep 2013, 1:44 PM | #16 REPORT | |
| janiejjones Member since Aug 2011 4920 Points Moderator |
TopPopper wrote:
Check this one out as an example:
http://www.45worlds.com/vinyl/album/vjlp1062 This is apparently a US issue. It reproduces a genuine US LP. Should it be removed from the US section and put under the bootleg flag instead? Personally, I think it should go on the page for the official release, but be marked as a counterfeit, with notes. +1 One problem we have with this is, it gets increasingly difficult connecting notes to images when things get a bit more populated. I see more of OCs valuable time spent on stuff not generating income.  |
| 21st Sep 2013, 3:29 PM | #17 REPORT | |
| TopPopper Member since Mar 2013 2612 Points | I take your point about notes and images getting a bit lost when there are many of them, but that's an overall issue with the format as it stands. Beatles LPs will often have dozens of label varieties, and the same issue applies. It's up to the contributor to make the photo description as clear as possible, unless some other system comes along (like a note linked to a picture). To be honest, once a general policy is decided I don't see how it's more work for anyone. There will always be some which need moving to the correct place, whatever policy is decided. |
| 21st Sep 2013, 4:04 PM | #18 REPORT | |
| Orbiting Cat Member since Jan 2008 1183 Points Administrator | Just to note that there is a link at the bottom of every record page "View Image Data" which lets you see the image descriptions inline without having to use popups. Maybe that link needs to be more prominent. EDIT: also this is a good discussion about bootlegs, that's why this world is in "beta testing", to iron out these issues. Edited by Orbiting Cat on 21st Sep 2013, 4:13 PM |
| 2nd Oct 2013, 5:04 PM | #19 REPORT | |
 | vinylpassion Member since Jun 2011 618 Points | Bootlegs and counterfeits are two totally different things and should be treated as such.But putting a country of origin on a bootleg is just a shot in the dark, i knew a well known bootlegger in the 80s who had his discs pressed in the uk but had made in Belgium or Germany on the sleeve, some labels such as TMQ or Kornyphone may be fairly easily traceable but there are hundreds that are impossible to put a country of origin on. |
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Vinyl Albums : Live Music : 78 RPM : CD Albums : CD Singles : 12" Singles : 7" Singles : Tape Media : Classical Music : Music Memorabilia : Cinema : TV Series : DVD & Blu-ray : Magazines : Books : Video Games : Create Your Own World
Latest » Items : Comments : Price Guide : Reviews : Ratings : Images : Lists : Videos : Tags : Collected : Wanted : Top 50 : Random
45worlds for music, movies, books etc : 45cat for 7" singles : 45spaces for hundreds more worlds