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| 11th Jan 2015, 1:03 AM | #1 REPORT | |
 | Juke Jules SUBS Tell me he's lazy, tell me he's slow Member since Jan 2011 4138 Points Moderator | There is a new fashion for issuing contemporary singles on 12" vinyl with one side playing at 78 rpm. These are of course microgroove pressings and are certainly not intended for playing with a steel needle. I imagine that the expectation will be that the 78 side is unlikely ever to be played as the only turntables capable of this are distinctly vintage, though no doubt cheapo USB models will be appearing soon. So far most of these have been added as 12" Singles and I suggest that these '78s' do not belong on 78 RPM World, where we should restrict ourselves to old-school shellac and vinyl records which can be played with a needle at the business end, or latterly with a turn-over stylus. How do other users feel about this? - Jules |
| 11th Jan 2015, 11:57 AM | #2 REPORT | |
 | zabadak Caddacack oh da ca-caddacack, shy shy skagellack Member since Jun 2010 4156 Points | Agreed - there are also, of course, several examples of 12" singles with one side playing at 33.3, which do not an album make!  |
| 11th Jan 2015, 11:58 AM | #3 REPORT | |
 | Magic Marmalade If you're not lost... It's not an adventure! Member since Jun 2014 3747 Points Moderator | I'm not sure the capability of the turntable itself matters any more in some senses Juke... you can play (and record) at a different speed, then alter the speed of the recording in a programme like Audacity. |
| 11th Jan 2015, 1:15 PM | #4 REPORT | |
 | TheJudge In-house specialist in drive-by moddings. Member since Dec 2012 3715 Points Moderator | Borderline cases could always be submitted to both, like wot we do with classical stuff. |
| 11th Jan 2015, 2:38 PM | #5 REPORT | |
| Trainman Trainman Member since Jun 2014 2559 Points Moderator |
Magic Marmalade wrote:
I'm not sure the capability of the turntable itself matters any more in some senses Juke... you can play (and record) at a different speed, then alter the speed of the recording in a programme like Audacity.
It's not as much an issue the turntable itself, but the stylus. I do play original 78's with a modern stylus, but it's too small to get all the music. If you use a conical stylus for the 78's, it will ruin the microgroove recording. You'd almost have to get two turntables (Actually every time I see a Garrard SL95B at a yard sale or thrift shop at I grab it, just to have parts to keep at least two or three operational. That's the nicest old turntable I've found that still has 4 speeds)) and dedicate one just for the vintage 78's, and one for microgroove (assuming it also has 4 speeds) |
| 11th Jan 2015, 4:50 PM | #6 REPORT | |
 | Jock_Girl A girl who looks good in vinyl Member since Dec 2012 1544 Points Moderator | Nope -- they spin at 78 and are 78s, so should not be removed from here. If you remove them for the sake of 'purity' then you shoudl also remove all the kiddie records from the 60s that are 7 inch plastic, as well as all the cylinders Amy |
| 11th Jan 2015, 6:36 PM | #7 REPORT | |
| Juke Jules SUBS Tell me he's lazy, tell me he's slow Member since Jan 2011 4138 Points Moderator | I am suggesting that microgroove records should be excluded from 78 World by virtue of the new technology which is incompatible with the reproduction equipment of the shellac era. I'd exclude them even if they played at 78 both sides just as with only one side. Cylinders and Diamond vertical movement Discs belong here equally with the major format shellac 78. Other materials also belong here; shellac was superceded by vinyl, and other polymers and fillers were used until shellac emerged as dominant. The diameter of the disc is not important to eligibility for 78 World |
| 11th Jan 2015, 7:02 PM | #8 REPORT | |
| Jock_Girl A girl who looks good in vinyl Member since Dec 2012 1544 Points Moderator | Jules, I do see your point, albeit from my own somewhat typically weird POV, which I why I argued a while back against the inclusion of kiddie records (recommending a 'kiddie record word') and cylinders here in the 78s. Cylinders and diamond discs are as incompatible as (in fact more so) as are the microgroove 78s. To my eyes, it sounds like  you are essentially saying that only 78s from the 'golden age' (roughly 1960 outside the 3rd world) are the only ones that belong on the 78 site.If you are going to use groove size as a gauge, the the Bell 78s of the 1950s no longer qualify, because even as 7 inch, being microgroove, they said on the label 'use lp stylus' Nope -- the modern 78s belong here -- if only because they are a continuing tribute the beauty of a rapidly rotating record. I'd say -- put 'em in both places! Amy |
| 12th Jan 2015, 2:30 PM | #9 REPORT | |
| Gamelan78s Member since Jan 2015 6 Points | i would any record that spins at 78 rpm belongs under 78s,I have many 78s pressed on Shellac from the late 60s from places like India and Africa btw when a 78 rpm record is pressed on vinyl,the sound is out of this world,i have a few vinyl test pressed from masters about 10 years back |
| 12th Jan 2015, 3:12 PM | #10 REPORT | |
| Jock_Girl A girl who looks good in vinyl Member since Dec 2012 1544 Points Moderator |
Gamelan78s wrote:
btw when a 78 rpm record is pressed on vinyl,the sound is out of this world
I agree -- one need only give a listen to the UK Pye and Top Rank 78s of the late 60s to prove this out. Then when you move on to contemporary items that are stereo --wow! Amy |
| 25th Jan 2015, 8:50 PM | #11 REPORT | |
| Pridesale Member since Mar 2013 805 Points | Referring to USB turntables that spin at 78 my Maplin cheapy sourced one does , but for the wide-groove ones it needs an additional '78' stylus, and of course the one I need they don't currently have in stock ( really the ION turntables are not the best things to play most records on as the tone-arm mechanism is fairly crude ) |
| 25th Jan 2015, 11:13 PM | #12 REPORT | |
| Juke Jules SUBS Tell me he's lazy, tell me he's slow Member since Jan 2011 4138 Points Moderator | I dug out some Kidditunes 6" 78s and noticed that they are microgroove 78s, with the legend "Use any needle - Play on any gramophone" on the rear of the sleeve  |
| 26th Jan 2015, 12:30 PM | #13 REPORT | |
| Pridesale Member since Mar 2013 805 Points |
Juke Jules wrote:
I dug out some Kidditunes 6" 78s and noticed that they are microgroove 78s, with the legend "Use any needle - Play on any gramophone" on the rear of the sleeve
I think they were often played on those red plastic battery turntables with inbuilt speaker, sold in toy departments of suburban department stores, they sounded terrible, when I was 3 I ran away from one to find a proper record shop. |
| 26th Jan 2015, 4:53 PM | #14 REPORT | |
| Neil Forbes Rock, Country or R. & B. - Classic Hits for me! Member since Dec 2014 252 Points |
Pridesale wrote:
Juke Jules wrote:
I dug out some Kidditunes 6" 78s and noticed that they are microgroove 78s, with the legend "Use any needle - Play on any gramophone" on the rear of the sleeve
I think they were often played on those red plastic battery turntables with inbuilt speaker, sold in toy departments of suburban department stores, they sounded terrible, when I was 3 I ran away from one to find a proper record shop. |
| 26th Jan 2015, 5:48 PM | #15 REPORT | |
| Jock_Girl A girl who looks good in vinyl Member since Dec 2012 1544 Points Moderator |
Juke Jules wrote:
they are microgroove 78s, with the legend "Use any needle - Play on any gramophone"
What's interesting about this is that a needle for 78s would rip the grooves to shreds. I wonder why they didn't simply make them non-microgroove, which would at least be playable with a microgroove stylus, albeit with a sound as if you were hearing it with your head stuffed up a dead bear's bum. Amy |
| 27th Jan 2015, 4:50 AM | #16 REPORT | |
| slholzer Not my circus, not my monkeys. Member since Dec 2014 619 Points | I don't know how I missed seeing this discussion earlier. I agree with those who think the speed should be the primary determinant of what goes in here. I would like to say something that may be considered heresy by a lot of you, though. The steel needle is and always was an abomination. It always did rip the hell out of records, and if you keep using them, it will continue to do so. Modern styli are far less wearing on shellac records and more responsive, provided you get one that is suited to the size and kind of groove you want to play. If the stylus is too small or the wrong shape, it will wallow around in the bottom of the groove and miss nearly everything you want to hear because the sound is in the side walls of the typical 78 groove. The stylus needs to be broad enough or rounded enough to get a side on each wall of the groove. You will need a different stylus to play hill-and-dale records. |
| 29th Jun 2015, 1:26 PM | #17 REPORT | |
| Pridesale Member since Mar 2013 805 Points | So on an in or similar turntable should the Pye ( did you mean the late 1950s?) be best played with the 33/45 cartridge ? |
| 29th Jun 2015, 1:27 PM | #18 REPORT | |
| Pridesale Member since Mar 2013 805 Points |
Neil Forbes wrote:
Pridesale wrote:
Juke Jules wrote:
I dug out some Kidditunes 6" 78s and noticed that they are microgroove 78s, with the legend "Use any needle - Play on any gramophone" on the rear of the sleeve
I think they were often played on those red plastic battery turntables with inbuilt speaker, sold in toy departments of suburban department stores, they sounded terrible, when I was 3 I ran away from one to find a proper record shop. Wasn't there the How! or Blue Peter trick of playing records with an ordinary pin pushed through corrigated cardboard ? |
| 29th Jun 2015, 7:23 PM | #19 REPORT | |
 | TopPopper Member since Mar 2013 2612 Points | I used to do similar when I was a kid. Wrap a piece of A4 paper into a cone. Poke a pin through the small end so it sticks out the other side. Set your dansette to play, but lift the tone arm off - and use the pin in the cone for a stylus. It does work. |
| 30th Jun 2015, 9:29 PM | #20 REPORT | |
| dezwarteschijf Member since Jul 2014 268 Points |
Pridesale wrote:
So on an in or similar turntable should the Pye ( did you mean the late 1950s?) be best played with the 33/45 cartridge ?
No, actually they should be played with a modern 78 needle 2.5 or 3 MM because of the wider grooves, I have a couple vinyl 78's and they sound awful playing with a normal needle .. too much hiss. I do own a German 78 minigrooved record on shellac wich should be played on 33 rpm .. it's from the late 40's early 50's. I was wondering wich turntable could handle 33 rpm speeds in the 40's ?? |
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