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| 17th Aug 2015, 11:45 PM | #21 REPORT | |
 | Fokeman I used to have a good memory but now I can't re Member since May 2011 5096 Points Moderator |
TopPopper wrote:
I am assuming the sleeve which was printed in Canada was for copies being sold there - thereby, being made in Canada and also for Canada. If the Canadian sleeves were sold in the US, then I withdraw everything I've said. But I don't imagine that was the case. |
| 18th Aug 2015, 1:53 AM | #22 REPORT | |
 | scrough🍰 No picture 'cos I'm not into 45rpm :( Member since Jan 2013 3428 Points Moderator | Unfortunately our Shanachie discography doesn't help. But this page shows a 'rare' release by a division of Shanachie with a Canadian printed sleeve - and no mention of 'Boot'. So my best guess (again) is this is also an American release cover. Why don't you imagine that was the case, TP? |
| 19th Aug 2015, 12:22 AM | #23 REPORT | |
| Neil Forbes Rock, Country or R. & B. - Classic Hits for me! Member since Dec 2014 252 Points | I think the criteria should be: country of origin - actual disc, regardless of where cover is printed. |
| 19th Aug 2015, 5:59 PM | #24 REPORT | |
| ppint. Member since Aug 2012 6397 Points | then all decca (uk) discs & tapes mfd in the netherlands (and so stated) become dutch releases, even if never distributed in that country, those mfd in austria, likewise become austrian, and those mfd in the bdr before german reunification, west german. and if any were mfd in the former yugoslav republic of macedonia. . . (i must confess i'm middling happy with the approach that the apparent territorial market(s) a release is aimed at and legally or officially distributed within should rule.) |
| 19th Aug 2015, 11:13 PM | #25 REPORT | |
 | TopPopper Member since Mar 2013 2612 Points |
fokeman wrote:
Nope! This record was sold in the UK as stated thrice before. Only Shanachie US made this record and wherever it ended up (this one in the UK), this is a US pressed record for "Worldwide".
It wasn't (as I understand it) on general sale in the UK. We are looking at an import copy. Pointing out that this copy was on sale in the UK is fair enough, but unfortunately confuses the issue. Any record from any country could be imported and sold in any other country. The point is, the Canadian sleeve, I think, was prepared for Canadian buyers, for retail in Canada rather than USA, notwithstanding some will have been shipped abroad from Canada as export copies, which is normal. Those which stayed in the US were never housed in that sleeve - correct me if I am wrong. Fokeman - I'm sure you know loads more than me about this whole area, and this label too - I'm not trying to prove you wrong, just challenge the assumption. @ Scrough - Why don't I imagine the Canadian sleeve is an American release? Just from my own experience with records. It's not impossible, but do we know for sure either way? I can show you UK-pressed records in sleeves from other countries, which were certainly for sale in those countries, and not here. It's not a hard and fast rule, but it's what I tend to think in similar cases. |
| 20th Aug 2015, 11:31 AM | #26 REPORT | |
| scrough🍰 No picture 'cos I'm not into 45rpm :( Member since Jan 2013 3428 Points Moderator | My own experience of LPs sold in the 1980s was that USA issues - at least for the major labels - had a 'saw cut' in the sleeve when they were released (excess pressings dumped?) in the UK. Prior to that they were sold as imports at a higher price than UK issues in specialist outlets. I don't think we are ever going to reach agreement over this or find a compromise  . |
| 22nd Aug 2015, 1:33 PM | #27 REPORT | |
 | nboldock Lend me ten pounds and I'll buy you a drink. Member since Feb 2012 7198 Points Moderator |
TopPopper wrote:
The principle we use is not where the record was made, but where it was sold.
That principle is true most of the time, but we have and do treat some independent labels (see Sub Pop, Elefant or City Slang on 45Cat for a really good example, or Bear Family on Worlds) differently for reasons of common sense, so it isn't a blanket rule and never has been. Shanachie would be another fitting case, in my opinion. |
| 24th Aug 2015, 2:01 PM | #28 REPORT | |
| Fokeman I used to have a good memory but now I can't re Member since May 2011 5096 Points Moderator | Sorry to be like a dog with a bone on this one, but I have a little more information to add to help you make your decision. I've just banged about 20 Shanachie LPs into the system and when you're doing Irish tunes with accents and several tunes to the track it is hard work. It's given me an insight into what actually happened with Shanachie. Its margins were relatively small to begin with and they started printing their sleeves in Canada as a matter of course at a certain stage. If they did large enough volumes and shipping was cheap, it was more economical to have them printed in Canada and sent to New Jersey. Since they only had one office it was difficult for them to cover Canada with distributing their records so they devolved the responsibility in Canada to Boot records, and Boot Records of Canada reciprocated. So, since they were already having ALL of their sleeves printed in Canada and wanted all copies of their records to be distributed in Canada by Boot Records, they had all of their sleeves printed with the information about who to contact IF you lived in Canada and wanted copies of their catalogue. However, just because the sleeve was printed in Canada and/or had Boot Records mentioned, doesn't mean that it is a Canadian issue. ALL records without exception were USA pressed and organised and came from the New Jersey office. Distribution in the UK was with whomever and whenever, although it often went to the biggest folk distributors such as Direct Distribution in London and C.M. Distribution in Yorkshire. A small label such as Shanachie just couldn't cover the whole of the North American continent without using agents and distributors. The further they had to send the records the less profit there was when the record actually sold. But just because Boot records was mentioned on the sleeve, doesn't mean that the record itself wasn't sold in New York. Some sleeves bear their address in New York. I think they moved from N.J. to the Bronx, N.Y. in the Mid 1980s. Because of size of print runs, I have some with no mention of printer and another copy of the same record with later label with sleeve printed in Canada (but still with the U.S. address). 79012 (Planxty Collection) is one such example where this occurs. Edited by fokeman on 25th Aug 2015, 7:33 AM |
| 24th Aug 2015, 2:20 PM | #29 REPORT | |
 | sladesounds Turning rebellion into money since 1962 Member since Nov 2009 6566 Points Moderator | This is one of those problems that could roll on and on. From what I can see Shanachie is a little label that did a bit of wheelin' and dealin' to get their records out there. What I would have a tendency to do is go with the majority decision and then re-review it if someone else has a problem with that at a later stage. As Nick has said it is obvious Shanachie does not meet the normal criteria and needs like Sub Pop & Bear Family to be treated a little different. If we change all entries to USA we can place in the label notes what its distribution deals were including information on why Boot and Canada shows on the covers. It might be an idea for someone to ask them via their web site to see if they can give more information. I have one Shanachie album entered (43003) which I am happy to have shown as a US release even though it has Canadian contact details on the sleeve. US label throughout - yea or nay - yes or no - have your say now. |
| 24th Aug 2015, 2:28 PM | #30 REPORT | |
| ppint. Member since Aug 2012 6397 Points | and i suspect either martin or coulter of coulter-martin (or martin-coulter) enterprises would have waxed quite, ah, eloquent, about the urgency of shanachie's need to contact them, had the cds of planxty's first three albums, or any & all compilation cds drawn from these albums, achieved any significant circulation outside of merkia, canadada, mexico & merkin naaaaaafiequivalents - and possibly, outside of that tiny peninsula south of the panananamanian canal, where some sales might conceivably accrue from the descendants of failed attempts by traditionally gallant celts to independantly colonise the mostly more remote parts of the countryside.° ° - either martin, or coulter - or both. |
| 24th Aug 2015, 2:41 PM | #31 REPORT | |
| Fokeman I used to have a good memory but now I can't re Member since May 2011 5096 Points Moderator | From what I understand there was a big debate about the entire Planxty back-catalogue being sold wholesale to Shanachie. Christy Moore et al are all hugely p**sed off about losing all control over their work. When interviewed, Phil Coulter nonchalantly said (I'm paraphrasing here) "It was a business decision to sell it all and we offered it to them first..." We don't know how much it was but I expect it was the cost of a large house and no-one from the band was particularly in the mood for selling their house to buy back their OWN work. So it went to Shanachie. I don't know but I suspect someone else has bought it (or Shanachie) for bigger bucks so the band'll never get the rights to their own music back again. More than anything, I think they were furious about the crappy art work put with their music. They had no control whatsoever on what happened to the release of their music in compilations or rereleases. And we know from the court cases that came out of Wendy Newton's demise at Green Linnet that royalty payments are (allegedly) few and far between with these sorts of companies. |
| 25th Aug 2015, 12:07 AM | #32 REPORT | |
| scrough🍰 No picture 'cos I'm not into 45rpm :( Member since Jan 2013 3428 Points Moderator |
sladesounds wrote:
It might be an idea for someone to ask them via their web site to see if they can give more information.
 |
| 25th Aug 2015, 12:50 PM | #33 REPORT | |
| Neil Forbes Rock, Country or R. & B. - Classic Hits for me! Member since Dec 2014 252 Points |
sladesounds wrote:
This is one of those problems that could roll on and on.
From what I can see Shanachie is a little label that did a bit of wheelin' and dealin' to get their records out there. What I would have a tendency to do is go with the majority decision and then re-review it if someone else has a problem with that at a later stage. As Nick has said it is obvious Shanachie does not meet the normal criteria and needs like Sub Pop & Bear Family to be treated a little different. If we change all entries to USA we can place in the label notes what its distribution deals were including information on why Boot and Canada shows on the covers. It might be an idea for someone to ask them via their web site to see if they can give more information. I have one Shanachie album entered (43003) which I am happy to have shown as a US release even though it has Canadian contact details on the sleeve. US label throughout - yea or nay - yes or no - have your say now. |
| 27th Aug 2015, 1:17 AM | #34 REPORT | |
| scrough🍰 No picture 'cos I'm not into 45rpm :( Member since Jan 2013 3428 Points Moderator | For this disc I agree Neil - USA. But this isn't a hard and fast rule - what if you came across a UK issued disc in a cover where all the text was in German except the track list? We need guidelines, not rules. |
| 27th Aug 2015, 11:34 AM | #35 REPORT | |
| Fokeman I used to have a good memory but now I can't re Member since May 2011 5096 Points Moderator | I think we've already agreed to guidelines which are not set in stone. In this case it is just a matter of agreeing that this is one of those special cases which needs to be one of the exceptions to the rule. |
| 27th Aug 2015, 2:57 PM | #36 REPORT | |
| Neil Forbes Rock, Country or R. & B. - Classic Hits for me! Member since Dec 2014 252 Points |
scrough wrote:
For this disc I agree Neil - USA.
But this isn't a hard and fast rule - what if you came across a UK issued disc in a cover where all the text was in German except the track list? We need guidelines, not rules. |
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