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| 16th Jan 2018, 7:17 PM | #1 REPORT | |
 | JPGR&B SUBS My aim - to add all my collections on 45worlds. Member since May 2009 4565 Points Moderator | Please see the comments against this entry. Certainly on The Beatles entries we have numerous entries for these companies like Coda Publishing, Reel To Reel etc - they are not Bootlegs but they are Unofficial Releases. Perhaps we ought now to include an option for "Unofficial Release". They really mess up the list of "official releases". Edited by JPGR&B on 16th Jan 2018, 7:24 PM |
| 16th Jan 2018, 11:01 PM | #2 REPORT | |
 | sladesounds Turning rebellion into money since 1962 Member since Nov 2009 6576 Points Moderator | I think the entry on Wikipedia sums it up fairly well in my mind... "A bootleg recording is an audio or video recording of a performance that was not officially released by the artist or under other legal authority. The process of making and distributing such recordings is known as bootlegging..." Semi-legit, fan based, whatever - if a copyrighted recording is released without the consent of the artist then it must be a bootleg. If they become un-copyrighted and are released as public domain in country that legally allows the release then it becomes a normal (legal?) release. The wikipedia article is interesting as it puts forward the point from some artists that although illegal they see them as essential and now class them as marketing tools. Note that there are a few albums from the same company (?) listed on the site as bootlegs under coda publishing Edited by sladesounds on 17th Jan 2018, 8:09 AM |
| 17th Jan 2018, 6:29 AM | #3 REPORT | |
| JPGR&B SUBS My aim - to add all my collections on 45worlds. Member since May 2009 4565 Points Moderator | Thanks for that. I’d forgotten that the Coda Publishing releases had been entered as Bootleg (in fact I entered many of them myself!). |
| 17th Jan 2018, 4:10 PM | #4 REPORT | |
 | kab2112 SUBS Wales, where men are men and sheep are nervous Member since Jan 2011 15478 Points Moderator | I mentioned the fact in a comment that there are many DVDs that are sold on Amazon, HMV and other major retailers that actually state that they are unofficial releases. There are loads of Beatles ones available, an example of which is Here I have bought CDs over the years in Germany and in Italy for example that are unofficial compilations. Bit of a grey area this one. |
| 17th Jan 2018, 8:26 PM | #5 REPORT | |
 | gregs45s SUBS Member since Apr 2012 7614 Points | I have suggested we add "Unofficial Release" in the past,but i wonder if that would now be wise,as the definition of a "Bootleg" has perhaps changed over time. Back in the day it was generally only used for illegal tape recordings/then to vinyl of just live concerts,not studio recorded stuff (in the main),whereas nowadays,especially with countries like Russia and China who are are issuing straight copies of studio albums/live DVD's (as well as live audio recordings) by the thousands,without the artists/record companies consent i would imagine,and so would they be better tagged as "Unofficial Releases",as i assume that although illegal here (Western-world) perhaps,they would possibly be the norm when bought in Russia/China,(i.e semi-official/the norm when purchased in those countries?) but it's going to be a fair job to go through all the bootlegs already on the system and decide which was a bootleg (i.e a live recording to vinyl/tape,and which was an unofficial release,in the sense of a straight studio album copy not sanctioned,so maybe it's better to use the "umbrella" "Bootleg" using it to put anything not okayed by the record companies? |
| 18th Jan 2018, 6:39 AM | #6 REPORT | |
 | TopPopper Member since Mar 2013 2612 Points | What's the distinction between bootleg and unofficial? It seems to me that it just comes down to how professionally the package is produced. If one CD has a clearly home-made insert and another has a nice glossy one with a fake barcode, is that enough to label them differently? Or is there more to it? Edited by TopPopper on 19th Jan 2018, 6:04 PM |
| 18th Jan 2018, 11:43 AM | #7 REPORT | |
| kab2112 SUBS Wales, where men are men and sheep are nervous Member since Jan 2011 15478 Points Moderator | To me there is a distinction between Unofficial and Bootleg releases. Bootleg releases are perhaps studio out-takes or live performances which have been put onto Vinyl, Tape, DVD or CD then sold usually by private means. Some of the "Unofficial" releases originate from countries where laws are not the same as ours, such as China, Russia to name but two. The Quality of the recordings are normally very good as they are digital copies of albums or album tracks. Artwork on occasion is a bit "iffy" The point I made earlier about DVDs where they actually state on the covers that these are "Unofficial" releases but are sold openly on Amazon and the likes, and there are 1000s available, covering many popular rock acts. This is a personal opinion, but I do make a clear distinction. Edited by kab2112 on 30th Jan 2018, 9:08 AM |
| 18th Jan 2018, 12:16 PM | #8 REPORT | |
| JPGR&B SUBS My aim - to add all my collections on 45worlds. Member since May 2009 4565 Points Moderator | Onside with gregs78s and kab2112 and like the idea of using Unifficial Release for stuff like the Russion labels and people like Coda Publishing. Edited by JPGR&B on 30th Jan 2018, 5:01 AM |
| 29th Jan 2018, 11:58 AM | #9 REPORT | |
| kab2112 SUBS Wales, where men are men and sheep are nervous Member since Jan 2011 15478 Points Moderator | This album was released in Germany and in some other European countries and sold in normal Retail outlets for CDs, DVDs etc. Not sure it should be classified as a bootleg. For my money, bootlegs are usually sold privately or through fan clubs, forums etc, not normally in shops etc. |
| 4th Feb 2018, 10:50 AM | #10 REPORT | |
 | nboldock Lend me ten pounds and I'll buy you a drink. Member since Feb 2012 7279 Points Moderator | I think there is a danger of overcomplication here. A bootleg isn't legal. Stuff like the Coda releases, they may not be official but they are completely legal. I would have them entered normally, you can always add "unofficial release" into the Notes. That keeps it simple as we always strive to do wherever possible. |
| 4th Feb 2018, 11:16 AM | #11 REPORT | |
| TopPopper Member since Mar 2013 2612 Points | Following the 50-year copyright thing, the situation has changed, and I think we need to consider what is meant by 'official release'. To me, it has two different meanings, and that's where confusion comes in. Taking the Beatles as an example, an 'official' release is historically defined as one sanctioned by EMI/Apple - who apparently controlled all the tapes, including unrealesed stuff. But a legal, commercial edition of anything is official in another sense. We just need to get our heads around the fact that multiple labels are now creating 'official' product of their own. It's official in a legal sense - like different publishers printing editions of Shakespeare - they are all 'official' releases, regardless of the company. There's no such thing as a legal but 'unofficial' edition of Shakespeare. It's a changed situation. Coda releases are official in the second sense, but unofficial in the first. If we don't descibe them as unofficial any longer, then we are back to the initial point - unofficial = bootleg. |
| 5th Feb 2018, 8:13 PM | #12 REPORT | |
 | Dr Doom SUBS I wanna eat an artichoke once in a while Member since Feb 2008 25453 Points Administrator | We're going to work out something new for this as we agree that unofficial and bootleg are indeed 2 different things. Coming soon.... I hope!  |
| 6th Feb 2018, 11:13 PM | #13 REPORT | |
| JPGR&B SUBS My aim - to add all my collections on 45worlds. Member since May 2009 4565 Points Moderator | Good luck Dr Doom! |
| 7th Feb 2018, 6:21 AM | #14 REPORT | |
 | zabadak Caddacack oh da ca-caddacack, shy shy skagellack Member since Jun 2010 4188 Points | What about "Pirate" releases?  |
| 9th Feb 2018, 6:02 PM | #15 REPORT | |
| mojofilter Member since Jul 2012 1441 Points | Many of these releases on the Coda Publishing label are of recordings that have previously circulated for decades on bootlegs. Namely, audio recordings made off the soundtrack of TV programs and concert films, and poor audience tapes of concerts, or concerts sourced from recordings made by a radio station, and material recorded off the radio. None of these are licensed from Apple, nor have they been released in any other legitimate form. (Apple compiled their Live At The BBC sets from bootlegs.) Yet other discs that Coda is releasing are full of content pirated right off the official EMI / Apple CDs, and studio outtakes that have been bootlegged since the late 1980s by labels such as The Swingin' Pig, Yellow Dog, Vigotone, Tobe Milo and many others. I think it opens up a can of worms if you want to call a Coda CD that has the soundtrack of "Blackpool Night Out" or "Philadelphia 1964" unofficial releases, when they have clearly been on dozens of bootlegs for decades. Being released in a country where the copyright laws are different from the UK or US doesn't necessarily mean that these often mediocre-sounding tape dubs are any more legitimate than they ever were. I don't believe Apple owns the rights to recordings that were made by ATV or ITV or the BBC. I've never even seen the issue of copyright ownership of the soundtracks of TV shows featuring The Beatles addressed before. The Complete Ed Sullivan Shows were bootleg recordings on Trade Mark Of Quality and Wizardo vinyl and Yellow Dog and Great Dane and Bulldog CDs and all the others. It's still a bootleg on the Coda label. I think that, no matter how pretty the artwork is, I would have to call them bootlegs. Not to mention that they found all this stuff for free on the internet. |
| 10th Feb 2018, 4:39 AM | #16 REPORT | |
 | TheDroid Member since Oct 2012 6280 Points | I agree with you on this mojofilter (and anyway, does it really matter?) |
| 14th Nov 2019, 5:32 PM | #17 REPORT | |
| JPGR&B SUBS My aim - to add all my collections on 45worlds. Member since May 2009 4565 Points Moderator | Have you made any progress Dr Doom? I have new CD release of Beatles Radio Broadcasts on the Vogon label. Clearly an unofficial release (i.e. not sanctioned by Apple), so do I add it as a bootleg? If we had an "unofficial" category it could certainly be that. Dr Doom wrote:
We're going to work out something new for this as we agree that unofficial and bootleg are indeed 2 different things.
Coming soon.... I hope! |
| 14th Nov 2019, 10:18 PM | #18 REPORT | |
| zabadak Caddacack oh da ca-caddacack, shy shy skagellack Member since Jun 2010 4188 Points |
JPGR&B wrote:
Have you made any progress Dr Doom? I have new CD release of Beatles Radio Broadcasts on the Vogon label. Clearly an unofficial release (i.e. not sanctioned by Apple), so do I add it as a bootleg? If we had an "unofficial" category it could certainly be that.
Dr Doom wrote:
We're going to work out something new for this as we agree that unofficial and bootleg are indeed 2 different things.
Coming soon.... I hope!  |
| 30th Nov 2019, 8:21 AM | #19 REPORT | |
 | Lee Wrecker If you can't dig me, you can't dig nothin' Member since Nov 2013 2283 Points | Discogs lists all the Coda Publishing releases as unofficial and I agree with that assessment. |
| 30th Nov 2019, 5:57 PM | #20 REPORT | |
 | Jock_Girl A girl who looks good in vinyl Member since Dec 2012 1544 Points Moderator | Then there is the on-going saga of Stargrove here in Canada. Not only public domain EMI Beatles tracks from start up to end of 1964 recycled endlessly along with some Rolling Stones, Dylan, Four Seasons etc those in there. Now, Stargrove has begin reissuing the same stuff in cheaper packaging on their 5041 Music Inc label. All of them are sold at Walmart stores across Canada. Needless to say this has really, to be polite, angered Universal/ Calderstone. Amy |
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