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| Varying Playback Speeds on Shellac Records (78 rpm, 80 rpm, 81 rpm, etc.) |
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| 13th May 2019, 7:22 PM | #1 REPORT | |
 | xiphophilos Member since Dec 2013 3351 Points Moderator | There was a useful thread on this topic at http://vinylville.tripod.com/spindoc.html, a site that no longer exists, so I have moved it here: Explanations of why certain speeds were chosen for certain types of phonograph recordings... s p i n s d o c t o r e d ___________________________ q. Does anyone know why 78 revolutions per minute was chosen as the standard rotation speed of old-fashioned gramophone records, rather than a round number such as 75 or 80 rpm? And are there convincing explanations for the choice of speeds for later EPs and LPs of 33 1/3 rpm and 45 rpm? JAMES LEE Oisterwijk The Netherlands ____________________________________________________________ a. It was Emil Berliner, the inventor of the gramophone, who determined roughly how fast old disc records should spin. He avoided Edison's need for a stylus made from precious jewels by using points which could be made from steel sewing needles and pins. The size of the stylus effectively determined the size of the grooves in a record and the recordable frequency range limited by this groove size determined a speed between 70 and 90 rpm. Standardisation did not begin until 1912, when the British Gramophone Company conducted listening tests on their back catalogue. They settled on the average (or possibly the median) of these tests, which turned out to be 78 rpm. Other companies adopted this, but the process was not complete until the early 1930s. Even after this date rogue rpm records still appeared. After standardisation problems still occurred. Because of electrical mains frequencies differences on opposite sides of the Atlantic, stroboscopic speed testers and synchronous motors meant a nominal speed of 77.922 rpm in countries that used 50 hertz and 78.261 in countries that used 60 hertz. These were later fixed in national (but not international) standards. Records of 33 1/3 rpm were developed in conjunction with films. A 12-inch 78 with Berliner-type grooves could hold between 4 and 5 minutes per side. The first practical sound films produced in the US in the late 1920s had their sound on separate disc records and it was more important for the sound to be continuous. A reel of film might run for 11 minutes, so a rotational speed of about 32 rpm was required to make the sound match the picture. History doesn't tell us why precisely 33 1/3 was chosen, but in retrospect it was a very good choice because stroboscopic speed testers can be made for this speed which will work on both sides of the Atlantic. It seems CBS engineers (who developed the first LPs in 1948), simply experimented with one of the old machines hanging around in their workshop. They then developed new groove dimensions which gave an acceptable signal-to-noise ratio with the new plastic material "vinyl". The 45 rpm speed was the only one to be decided by a precise optimisation procedure (by RCA Victor in 1948). Calculus was used to show that the optimum use of a disc record of constant rotational speed occurs when the innermost recorded diameter is half the outermost recorded diameter. That's why a 7-inch single has a label 3 1/2 inches in diameter. Given the CBS vinyl groove dimensions and certain assumptions about the bandwidth and tolerable distortion, a speed of 45 rpm comes out of the formula. PETER COPELAND British Library National Sound Archive London a. From 1894 to around 1930, there were many different record speeds ranging from 65 to 90 rpm, each case being a compromise between playing time and the need for a clean cut in the original wax. The Victor company used 76 rpm for many years for its recordings but instructed buyers to reproduce at 78 rpm, the record's durability was improved that way. The standard of 78 rpm arrived by default, although the actual speed depended on the electrical mains frequency. Constant linear speed, or varying the rpm, was commercialised but did not prove to be a success (until the arrival of the CD). The speed of 33 1/3 was introduced in 1927 after theoretical analysis of the compromise between signal-to-noise ratio and playing time (3 minutes per radial inch) by J. P. Maxfield of Bell Laboratories for sound films produced on the Vitaphone system. And it was a professional de facto standard before it became commercialised by CBS in 1948. It has been suggested that 78 minus 33 equals 45 was the reason for the emergence of 45 rpm records but, in fact, Maxfield's analysis still applies: the 45 "single" was RCA's equivalent to a 10-inch, 78 rpm record, only smaller. GEORGE BROCK-NANNESTAD Copenhagen Denmark |
| 13th May 2019, 7:22 PM | #2 REPORT | |
| xiphophilos Member since Dec 2013 3351 Points Moderator | Part 2 of the same post: a. Emil Berliner's first disc gramophones were wound by hand at somewhere between 60 and 100 rpm. The 7-inch discs lasted a minute or so and had low sound quality. Berliner and his assistant Fred Gaisberg realised that unless the speed was governed, the gramophone would never be more than a novelty. Gaisberg visited a young mechanic who was making clockwork machinery, hoping to use it for sewing machines. This machinery was never successful in sewing machines, but was ideal for gramophones, and it rotated at 78 rpm. The mechanic, Eldridge Johnson, became a millionaire. Columbia made all its discs to run at 80 and HMV had its pioneer recordings produced between 68 and 92 rpm with the key of the piece marked on the label. You then tuned it on your own piano, using the gramophone's governor. These speeds all gradually settled into the standard of 78. When talking pictures first arrived in the late 1920s, the sound was recorded separated on discs and had to be synchronised by the projectionist at each showing. Every cinema projection room had a pair of projectors, each taking 1000-feet reels of film, whose running time was about 10 minutes. The projectionist switched projectors after each reel. Ideally, this meant that the sound should last 10 minutes as well, as it would be impossible to synchronise a sound changeover in midreel. At the time, however, a 12 inch 78 rpm record lasted for only about 4 minutes, so the Vitagraph company simply slowed down the 78 until it lasted 10 minutes and recorded all their masters on that, starting each disc in the middle, as it was easier to drop a needle there than the outer edge. This new speed was 33 1/3 rpm, adopted for other records in the late 1940s when Columbia introduced its first vinyl, long-play discs with microgrooves, giving a play time of about 30 minutes on each side. However, the long-play disc wasn't particularly suitable to popular music, as the public wanted its records as singles with good sound quality even at high volumes. RCA Victor came up with a 7-inch vinyl disc with microgrooves, rotating at 45 rpm, a speed chosen specifically to make the most of the music, unlike 78s or 33 1/3s. And does no one remember the 16s? ROGER WORSLEY Haverfordwest Pembrokeshire |
| 13th May 2019, 10:29 PM | #3 REPORT | |
 | Juke Jules SUBS ● Tell me he's lazy, tell me he's slow Member since Jan 2011 4138 Points Moderator | I've been trying to find a Columbia disc with the piano pitch marked on the label...  Edited by Juke Jules on 13th May 2019, 10:40 PM |
| 14th May 2019, 12:32 AM | #4 REPORT | |
 | scrough No picture 'cos I'm not into 45rpm :( Member since Jan 2013 3428 Points Moderator | Pitch didn't get standardised in Europe until 1939, with A at 440Hz. Before that there were many variations, and this article will give you a glimpse. USA recordings are yet another mass of variations A recent addition to my website of two 1900 Berliner recordings needed transcription at 70rpm to reach the probable pitch of the time. See John Hill Maccann on this page. So determining the correct speed of a recording is never simple  |
| 14th May 2019, 11:05 AM | #5 REPORT | |
 | zabadak Caddacack oh da ca-caddacack, shy shy skagellack Member since Jun 2010 4156 Points | Some UK 78s were also meant to play at speeds other than 78...   |
| 14th May 2019, 4:46 PM | #6 REPORT | |
| xiphophilos Member since Dec 2013 3351 Points Moderator | Speed 80 was indeed pretty standard for 1920s UK Columbias. What I find amazing is that it was possible for the two sides of the same record to be played at different speeds. With regard to His Master's Voice D 389, the His Master's Voice General Catalogue 1920 recommends to play the A side, Harry Lauder's "A Wee Deoch An' Doris", recorded in 1911, at 81 rpm, whereas the B side, Harry Lauder's "Bonnie Maggie Tamson", recorded in 1916, was supposed to be played at 79 rpm. The US Victor release of the same coupling (Victor 55120) from 1921 says nothing about playing these selections at anything else but 78 rpm. Edited by xiphophilos on 14th May 2019, 4:59 PM |
| 14th May 2019, 11:34 PM | #7 REPORT | |
| Juke Jules SUBS ● Tell me he's lazy, tell me he's slow Member since Jan 2011 4138 Points Moderator | Thanks for that, xp, didn't realise the recommendation was in the catalogue rather than on the label |
| 15th May 2019, 10:31 AM | #8 REPORT | |
| zabadak Caddacack oh da ca-caddacack, shy shy skagellack Member since Jun 2010 4156 Points |
xiphophilos wrote:
ith regard to His Master's Voice D 389, the His Master's Voice General Catalogue 1920 recommends to play the A side, Harry Lauder's "A Wee Deoch An' Doris", recorded in 1911, at 81 rpm, whereas the B side, Harry Lauder's "Bonnie Maggie Tamson", recorded in 1916, was supposed to be played at 79 rpm.
  Edited by zabadak on 15th May 2019, 10:37 AM |
| 15th May 2019, 7:39 PM | #9 REPORT | |
| xiphophilos Member since Dec 2013 3351 Points Moderator | The result may not have been quite as dramatic.  If you got it wrong, all that happened was you turned Harry Lauder from a baritone into a bass. |
| 16th May 2019, 12:28 AM | #10 REPORT | |
| scrough No picture 'cos I'm not into 45rpm :( Member since Jan 2013 3428 Points Moderator |
xiphophilos wrote:
What I find amazing is that it was possible for the two sides of the same record to be played at different speeds.
|
| 16th May 2019, 1:29 PM | #11 REPORT | |
| j.monk Member since Sep 2017 167 Points | I visited a friendly collector a couple of weeks ago, we played some OKeh, recorded on the fields, but the cutting machine failed slowly throughout the trip and records made at the end of the trip have to be played at more than 80 rpm. He use a tuning fork to reach the correct speed...That doesn't help making things simple ! Edited by moderator on 4th May 2021, 6:45 AM |
| 16th May 2019, 5:03 PM | #12 REPORT | |
| Juke Jules SUBS ● Tell me he's lazy, tell me he's slow Member since Jan 2011 4138 Points Moderator | Speaking of Okeh, I see we have one entry for Okeh (UK). Can this be changed to Okeh (USA)? |
| 17th May 2019, 2:40 AM | #13 REPORT | |
| xiphophilos Member since Dec 2013 3351 Points Moderator | Have made the change. The entry was submitted by someone who submitted so many non-sensical entries, all copied from Discogs, that he finally had to be made read-only. |
| 4th May 2021, 9:22 AM | #14 REPORT | |
| xiphophilos Member since Dec 2013 3351 Points Moderator | Some more relevant comments by Tim Brooks: "The first Climax and Columbia discs seem to hover in the 74-76 rpm range, and later releases about 76-78 rpm, although there are exceptions." "During the 1910s Victor advertised its records as playing “correctly” at 78 rpm, and Columbia maintained that its records should be reproduced at 80 rpm, although both speeds are manifestly too fast. Only Edison (at 160 rpm for cylinders, 80 rpm for discs) played as advertised. The reason Victor and Columbia gave their customers patently wrong advice about proper playing speeds is unclear. One researcher has suggested that perhaps the heavy tone arms of the day produced so much drag that the turntable had to be set a couple of revolutions too fast in order for the record to play properly when the tone arm was lowered on to the disc’s surface. Another theory is that the records sounded “brighter” when played a little fast. There were complaints about this state of affairs even at the time. A letter to the Talking Machine World in 1908 asked why speeds could not be indicated on the label. Some European Odeons, the writer observed, were marked with the notation “74R,” meaning play at 74 rpm. But Columbia and Victor weren't listening, and not until the advent of electrical recording in 1925 did speeds settle down (more or less) to 78 rpm, as advertised." https://adp.library.ucsb.edu/index.php/resources/detail/129 |
| 21st May 2021, 9:36 AM | #15 REPORT | |
| ppint. Member since Aug 2012 6397 Points | @xiphophilos fwiw here's one catter/wielder as remembers the 16rpm record speed as more than just a setting on the dansette's autochanger that no-one ever used, except very occasionally for the hilarious (fcvotw) effects obtained by playing records intended to be played at double or treble the speed; but even so, i don't remember aught being recorded for play at 16rpm aside of stories for little children, and children's nursery rhymes... - was the speed used for aught else? (re roger worsley's parting question, quoted by yourgoodself a little while back) |
| 21st May 2021, 10:01 AM | #16 REPORT | |
| Juke Jules SUBS ● Tell me he's lazy, tell me he's slow Member since Jan 2011 4138 Points Moderator | yr humbl recommends you search vinyl albums on "16" whereupon you will see pages of them |
| 14th Jun 2021, 6:57 AM | #17 REPORT | |
| Break-In Master Member since Dec 2013 251 Points |
Juke Jules wrote:
I've been trying to find a Columbia disc with the piano pitch marked on the label...
Liberty Bell!! The Monty Python theme! |
| 18th Jun 2021, 8:59 AM | #18 REPORT | |
 | Fokeman I used to have a good memory but now I can't re Member since May 2011 5096 Points Moderator | It is not completely random that the speed of 33 1/3 rpm exists. It's simple maths to calculate that after 3 minutes the record would have made exactly 100 revolutions. |
| 18th Jun 2021, 11:42 PM | #19 REPORT | |
| Pridesale Member since Mar 2013 805 Points | Ahh, does that explain the 3 min coin in slot player mechanisms to go with audio on the what the butler saw machines at the end of the pier? |
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