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| 20th Jul 2019, 11:58 AM | #1 REPORT | |
 | PhilMH SUBS Member since Jan 2012 1058 Points | Could I ask, yet again, if admins/mods have made any progress at all on this issue in the last seems-like-1000 years that we've been asking about it? I had a PM from Lee Wrecker last week which I haven't replied to yet, because I am confused about which way to go, and that's because management aren't telling us what (if anything) is on their minds! My preference is still for multiple flags and release dates to be added to pressings sold in multiple countries, coupled with an additional redesign of the artist pages so that releases are divided up into separate countries as they are on vinyl albums world (plus, updating the guide to adding CD's), but please, guys, make a decision - ANY decision - so that we can debate it, or support it, or tear it apart! |
| 21st Jul 2019, 2:28 AM | #2 REPORT | |
 | The_Vinyl_Junkie SUBS My body is on the diminishing streak. Member since Dec 2011 8103 Points Moderator | The issue seems to have died without any resolution. Quote (from the Mod Forums): "The issue to do with "International" and "Europe" has raised another problem. When doing a specific search the "Filter" has a Country option. I want to find a release in Australia, I would choose "Australia" or failing a result then select "International". I would not use "Europe". For example this was initially entered as Europe, then a confirmed Australian release came along bringing the entry to "International" and edited accordingly. Some time later it was changed back to "Europe". Should we then be using the release country for all countries that are not Europe and ignore International altogether? Australia is not a part of Europe and official Australian releases should not be listed as Europe." End Quote. There was no response to this so I re-entered it under Australia and linked the releases. Personally I feel "International" should be dropped and the country of official release be used. For Australian releases, as listed in Platterlog, should be entered as Australia (Country) regardless of where they were manufactured. The listings in Platterlog Imports would be entered under that labels country. For example The String-A-Longs on the Ace label was imported and distributed in Australia by Shock under license, and correctly entered as UK. We still have some official Australian releases that have been edited from "International" to "Europe". These need to be re-entered as Australia where we have the official release date and other relevant Australian details. PhilMH's preference would be the way to go to resolve the "International"/"Europe" problem. Edited by The_Vinyl_Junkie on 21st Jul 2019, 2:37 AM |
| 21st Jul 2019, 10:56 PM | #3 REPORT | |
 | okun69 Life is best at 45rpm Member since Sep 2010 668 Points | I wholeheartedly agree with both the previous posts, it really is about time that this item is dealt with once and for all. PhilMH's suggestion about using flags is really the most sensible suggestion. Unfortunately, due to the lack of any coherent policy with regards entry I have withheld entering any further releases on the CD sites. I've noticed that the International terminology is now used on the Vinyl LP site, if this is the way the site is going to sidestep resolving an issue I might have to stop uploading to there as well. |
| 22nd Jul 2019, 12:47 PM | #4 REPORT | |
 | ppint. Member since Aug 2012 6452 Points | if this is indeed still in design stage, it'd be both more accurate and useful° for ''international'' to be a possible selection that does not exclude any country or territory. this would - allow the 45worlds' use of the ''international'' classification to follow the way the music business developed and then centralised production and distribution (with occasional (re-)diversifications and the odd hiccup), - let 45worlders add further countries (and ''territories'') that the original poster did not know about - allow for peculiarities of the business worlds that use ''international'' to mean different things including°° ''the world''; ''the world excluding the usa''; ''the world excluding canada and the usa''; ''the world excluding north america''; ''the world excluding north america and australia''; ''the world excluding north america and new zealand and australia''; ''europe''; ''europe excluding the uk-of-gb-&-ni''; ''europe, australia and/or new zealand'' - and any and all of the above ''excluding the currently officially still-united k-of-gb-&-ni, and parts thereof'', post-brexit, thus to an extent future-proofing the architecture. . . ° - shock, horror - ? °° - but not limited to... |
| 25th Jul 2019, 1:49 PM | #5 REPORT | |
| Pridesale🍰 Member since Mar 2013 805 Points | Ppint has identified exactly how businesses regard the world for sales territory reasons - Music and Books in much the same way |
| 26th Jul 2019, 12:01 PM | #6 REPORT | |
| PhilMH SUBS Member since Jan 2012 1058 Points | A thing about release dates - if items were originally imported by their Australian licensees, but later repressed in Australia with the same labels and catalogue numbers, Platterlog didn't relist them; most likely the record companies just treated them as new pressings of already in-catalogue items. This certainly happened with the original Beatles CD's in 1987 (UK/Europe imports at first, later repressed in Australia and with the Apple logo added). In those cases, I think we should list all the relevant pressings under one entry showing the first release date. |
| 26th Jul 2019, 1:13 PM | #7 REPORT | |
| ppint. Member since Aug 2012 6452 Points | philmh: my preference would be for an architecture that allows for "catters" to record° differences in whether imported copies were distributed by a licencee°°, or locally-pressed copies were manufactured for distribution by the rights-holders, or both°, and from when; and, if a change was made from one to the other, when; (° - and if the change or addition was only temporary - ?) - in a way that's clear for new as well as established catters to see where to put such information, and how, - and clearly states it allows for details to be added later, - and makes checking up on such, and sorting on them, very easy and obvious how to do; - thus making the cat as flexibly useful as well as easy to enter items into, as possible. - i s'spect it'd also be appreciated by the assembled ranks of the semi-divine hierarchy if it necessitated calling for their intervention as little and as infrequently as possible. . . ° - no pun intended °° - and who this was - not always a fully- or partly- owned subsidiary of the original owner (or inheritor corporation) of the recordings, sometimes a local music company (iiuc festival would've been the outstanding xxxxian example in the vinyl era - no?) |
| 26th Jul 2019, 2:49 PM | #8 REPORT | |
| PhilMH SUBS Member since Jan 2012 1058 Points | Hi ppint,I'm trying to visualize how your suggestion would work. Here's an example: k.d. lang's SHADOWLAND was released in Australia by WEA sometime before August 1988 (the first Platterlog that I have) with catalogue number 9257422; that was most likely a European pressing. My own copy, bought in 1996, has the same number (at least on the back - on the spine it is 9 25742-2 and on the disc 9 25742 2) says manufactured and distributed by Warner Music Australasia, and has the logo for Digital Audio Techonologies Australia on the disc. From Discogs, I know that WEA changed its name to Warner Music Australia in November 1990, and the DATA plant was established in 1992 and operated under that name until 2004. So, because Platterlog didn't relist it, I don't have a precise date for the Aussie pressing, I can only pin it down to between 1992 and 1996, unless someone has a whiz-bang method of dating it from whatever's in the inner rings (there is some other number there, but it doesn't quite look like any mastering or mould SID code that I've ever seen; curiously, it also has the initials SRC, for Specialty Recording Corporation, the US plant that Warners acquired, so this looks like it's made from a US glass master). So, if an earlier Platterlog can be found (some else here has them!), we can find the original 1988 release date, but how do you envisage that the later pressing would be entered - were you thinking specific year, or a year range? I think that in a lot of cases, a range will be the closest we can get, unless another user can say that they bought their copy in a specific year that corresponds to a plant's first year of operation. Most of the Australian major companies who imported discs distributed them with the catalogue numbers and barcodes as shown on the packages. Festival were an exception, who (except for their last few years of existence) allocated catalogue numbers (and later, barcodes) from their own system, by way of a stamped or printed sticker fixed to the back of the CD or cassette case, or LP cover. For that reason, and especially for the ones with barcodes, I have entered those twice, one entry with the US catalogue number and barcode, and another entry with the Australian catalogue number and barcode, and linked them together. |
| 26th Jul 2019, 7:41 PM | #9 REPORT | |
| ppint. Member since Aug 2012 6452 Points | phil:ha! i hadn't considered there might be a need for a date range, but there are cases where a range is the best so far established for an edition of a book, even a first edition (or "first thus"), so i shouldn't've been surprised. i'd specifically state that small-scale unauthorised importation for self & friends should not be included as "a release" in a country (or "territory"), though such might well be worth mentioning if sufficient numbers were imported and distributed across a country, territory, city or large town, to make an impact upon the local music business - or, upon the holder of the licence to the rights. ok, later lps, cds (?cassettes, 8-tracks cartridges?): legitimate importation & distribution to the retailers, wholesalers etc. by way of trade: counts as a release, yes; has a date it was officially release - yes (though this mayn't be known, or not precisely-known); has a cat# and/or a bar-code number and a country or plant of manufacture, and may have a cat# and/or bar-code number assigned and attached to it or the package by the distributor. (to be continued: now on 555 to milnthorpe, the centre of the universe) |
| 26th Jul 2019, 11:01 PM | #10 REPORT | |
 | Juke Jules SUBS Tell me he's lazy, tell me he's slow Member since Jan 2011 4151 Points Moderator |
ppint. wrote:
milnthorpe, the centre of the universe)
isn't that somewhere near Storth?  |
| 27th Jul 2019, 12:23 PM | #11 REPORT | |
 | gregs45s SUBS Member since Apr 2012 7614 Points | Initially,i believe that when CD Album World was conceived,it was probably thought that many CD's were issued worldwide with the same Cat.No./barcode etc,but in reality,it is apparent that with each different countries release,there is a change in either Cat.No. or barcode or label.I have been banging on for years about this fact,and that very small changes in the Cat.No.,i.e,spaces/hyphens/one extra number,are used to indicate a different countries release.Only occasionally (around 10% of CD's in my estimation) are there cases where the EXACT Cat.No./barcode/label combination has been used in two or more countries,and that when this occurs of that 10%,85% (est) of the time it involves two countries,10% (est) of the time it's three countries,and 5% (est) of the time,four or more countries.And so,for the majority of entries,only two counties are involved.I have said in the past that i therefore disagree with using an "International" option.Just because a CD was issued in both the UK and Argentina (for example),we make it "International",thereby wiping out it's true identity,if you then go looking for either the UK or Argentinian release,you won't find it,unless you think to click on the "International" release (and,only then,if it's been mentioned in the notes;).Although i appreciate that technically "International" is two countries or more,in reality,it's just confusing,as,for most people"International" means worldwide,which on this occasion it doesn't. Edited by gregs45s on 27th Jul 2019, 1:38 PM |
| 27th Jul 2019, 12:43 PM | #12 REPORT | |
| gregs45s SUBS Member since Apr 2012 7614 Points | Continued... I first suggested using multiple flag indicators a few years back,to no avail. I suggested using flag indicators for countries of release as well as countries of manufacture,something like this... "Countries issued in"-----------"Countries manufactured in" [flag]-----------------------------------Disc - [flag] [flag]-----------------------------------Artwork - [flag] (the flags showing the country of manufacture would not be shown in the thumbnail to avoid confusion,but somewhere on the entry's page instead) Bear in mind,that multiple flags would not be the norm,one flag would be needed (country of issue) for an estimated 90% of releases.When an occasion where the same Cat.No./barcode/label has been released in two or more countries,then additional flags would be used.i would suggest that the first (top) flag be the earliest release (where known). The reason for the "Country Made In" option,is,that when people are entering a Disc,this information can be read off the Disc/artwork,and so,is something that everyone can do,whereas deciding/looking for indicators as to where a CD was released is not so easy,and would suggest a message was put on the first counties page,saying something like... "Determining the county of release for CD's can be complicated,and,if unsure,enter "Unknown Country" now and Moderators/members can add the countries of release at a later date." (I am convinced that many people get stumped at the first countries option page,and,often,don't want to be embarrassed by using the "Unknown Country" option,at least if it was explained,and the fact that they can enter the country of manufacture with some confidence would help.). Edited by gregs45s on 28th Jul 2019, 10:40 AM |
| 27th Jul 2019, 1:03 PM | #13 REPORT | |
| gregs45s SUBS Member since Apr 2012 7614 Points | Continued... This "International" problem is only one of the potential problems facing the future of CD Album World however IMHO.I feel that we need clarification of how serious a World/Database this is to become,i.e,if it is to be regarded as a proper reference site,then some basic format changes to the database are surely overdue. I have been linking CD albums recently,and this has raised a question/potential problem...If,the only way to find a particular albums releases are to be by the "Linked Releases" option,then they will need to be constantly updated,if,however you were to create a "Master Release" page (a-la-Discogs),then all releases could be found/added to on one page.This lists all releases of any one particular album in chronological order from top to bottom,and includes all the different formats the album was released on,typically, LP/Cassette/CD. And,although we would effectively be copying Discogs,surely,what matters is that it clearly works,and would surely be an improvement on the current linked releases method (not to mention cross-links!). Some Moderators i feel,interpret CD Cat.No's as "similar is the same",whilst they are clearly not,and i feel everyone needs to be on the same page here.If more emphasis perhaps was put on ensuring Cat.No's were entered more accurately (i.e,as written on the product,making sure all spaces/hyphens etc. were included) then i feel that the difference between different counties releases would become more apparent,and feel that by tweaking the way CD's were entered (perhaps with a better guide) then it would make life a lot easier for all. (perhaps also the addition of a "how to enter CD's" page before the countries page,would help,with some pointers on how to spot country indicators) Edited by gregs45s on 28th Jul 2019, 11:01 AM |
| 27th Jul 2019, 1:15 PM | #14 REPORT | |
| gregs45s SUBS Member since Apr 2012 7614 Points | Continued... If CD Album World is to be a true reference site (as 45 Cat has become),then it needs the database to be set up in a way that is both easier to add to,and,at the same time,more detailed,to point out differences to collectors,if,however,it is destined to be just a "fun" site,and not serious,then surely it will rapidly become just a collection of pretty pictures,with no coherence. I therefore think now is the best time to try to sort these potential problems,as,CD Album World is still in it's infancy with 92k entries,compared to 3.7 million CD entries on Discogs ( i realise that that figure includes many minor variations that we would not enter separately,but we still have at least a couple of million to go;) I hope CD Album World is being looked at,and that it's taken seriously,and that maybe my suggestions might give food for thought,because,as a CD collector,i feel that the way data is both collected and displayed is in need of a bit of a re-think,long term. And would hope it becomes the reference site for CD collectors. Edited by gregs45s on 27th Jul 2019, 1:40 PM |
| 29th Jul 2019, 2:10 AM | #15 REPORT | |
| The_Vinyl_Junkie SUBS My body is on the diminishing streak. Member since Dec 2011 8103 Points Moderator | When ‘45worlds’ came there were two extra options for ‘Country’, International and Europe, after a few years of becoming acclimatized to '45cat'. Somewhere along the line, (but I haven’t found it), International was defined as an item being released in two or more continents with exactly the same cat number and barcode. At present we officially have seven continents; Africa, Europe, Asia, North America, South America, Australia (or Oceania) and Antarctica. There is a guide to choosing a country available, which is a good guide, but is not all that clear for International. Where some items are International, their release dates in the various continents could vary up to 12+ months, which then creates a false indication of the actual release date in a particular continent (country). Another problem with International is we have no idea of which countries the item has been released, unless there is an option to add to the ‘Notes’, similar to ‘gregs45s’ – “Countries issued in” without flags. For this it would need to allow an all member access to editing ‘Notes’ otherwise it would create a lot more work for the Mods. Since ‘International’ has become so problematic I suggest that it be dropped altogether as a ‘Country selection’ and we adopt the same line as ‘45cat’. This would make it more professional with better details entered for individual countries. Edited by The_Vinyl_Junkie on 29th Jul 2019, 2:18 AM |
| 29th Jul 2019, 5:58 AM | #16 REPORT | |
 | leonard BLANK Member since Jun 2011 45883 Points Moderator | OK! Let's start with NOT using International as country of release, but adding something Australian as Australian etc. Don't add images of a different territory to an existing release and then we can really get out of this mess. In collaboration with Lee we splitted up quite a few internationals in Australia-Europe or Australia-USA.. We will get there eventually!! |
| 29th Jul 2019, 6:22 AM | #17 REPORT | |
| The_Vinyl_Junkie SUBS My body is on the diminishing streak. Member since Dec 2011 8103 Points Moderator |
leonard wrote:
OK! Let's start with NOT using International as country of release, but adding something Australian as Australian etc. Don't add images of a different territory to an existing release and then we can really get out of this mess. In collaboration with Lee we splitted up quite a few internationals in Australia-Europe or Australia-USA..
We will get there eventually!!  Care will need to be taken with ownerships when splitting. |
| 29th Jul 2019, 7:14 AM | #18 REPORT | |
| PhilMH SUBS Member since Jan 2012 1058 Points | A solution I could live with if the multiple flag option is not technically possible, is that if the same item is released somewhere other that its originating country, then a new entry be created for the other country, so that European CD's be duplicated for Australia, just as on 45cat, where PolyGram's singles made in New Zealand but also distributed in Australia are entered for both countries - I think that's what you are driving at here, T_V_J? That way, both the original country's release date and the Australian or other countries dates can be entered. It would help,though, if an easier method of copying entries was available, as all the other sites seem to have in some form, so that only the country and the release date would need to be entered on the new entry. I'm not particularly a fan of using the country where a disc was made as the country to be entered, because that would give a misleading impression in many cases; many early US (and European, and other) CD's were made in Japan expressly for those markets, so it would be a fallacy to enter Japan in the country field. Similarly, I have CD's released via Festival in Australia, showing Festival's name and catalogue number on the packages and disc, but the discs were made in the USA for Australian release. Even in the present day, some US Universal releases have clear stickers on the shrinkwrap and/or jewel cases showing "DISC MADE IN MEXICO", so again it would be fallacious to enter those as Mexican releases (in the same way that many recent vinyl reissues have been entered as Czech Republic on this and other sites, because one of the main vinyl plants happens to be in that country). Country of manufacture would be best left to notes or comments in these cases. Also, if a country's first CD's were supplied by another country, but later pressings with the same label and catalogue number (or broadly similar catalogue number - I don't want to obsess too much over spaces or dashes), then they can go under the same entry with a note or comment along the lines of "Initial release was European pressing, later copies pressed in Australia". |
| 29th Jul 2019, 7:29 AM | #19 REPORT | |
| PhilMH SUBS Member since Jan 2012 1058 Points | Also, if the "International" option is to be scrapped, maybe the "Europe" one should be too? Having "Made in Europe" or "Made in EU" on a disc does not necessarily mean that it was released in Europe as a whole (the Ace/Kent group of labels being a perfect example). |
| 29th Jul 2019, 8:30 AM | #20 REPORT | |
| leonard BLANK Member since Jun 2011 45883 Points Moderator | Please don't start talking about Europe, or having country of manufacture as guiding rule, but let's concentrate on international first and see where we go. We must not be too rigid and we will find (eventually) a solution for every problem. And... let's stop yapping and start adding (with decent images please)! |
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