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Help Dating this 78   


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  8th Oct 2019, 1:36 AM#1  REPORT  
Jock_Girl

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I just got this one:

cresencio-camacho-vales-un-millon-philips-78-t.jpg
cresencio-camacho-agua-que-se-quema-gaira-philips-78-t.jpg

Whats cool is that its the first time I've ever seen this style Philips label used on a 78. But I can't seem to date it in any way. My guess places it anywhere from 1963 to 1965. I tried to determine a date based on when Philips may have started using the NNNN NNN number system, but can't even figure that out -- any help would be great

Amy



  8th Oct 2019, 6:37 AM#2  REPORT  
TheJudge

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In the UK at least, Philips started using that numbering system in about 1970.

It's an odd one, this; I would have expected that 78s - apart from 'novelty' releases - would not have been issued anywhere other than, say, India or the Phillipines after about 1968. Where does the number fall in terms of the sequence of Philips cat#s for Colombia?


  8th Oct 2019, 2:03 PM#3  REPORT  
Jock_Girl

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TheJudge wrote:
In the UK at least, Philips started using that numbering system in about 1970.

It's an odd one, this; I would have expected that 78s - apart from 'novelty' releases - would not have been issued anywhere other than, say, India or the Phillipines after about 1968. Where does the number fall in terms of the sequence of Philips cat#s for Colombia?

I haven't been able to determine that as we have no Philips 45s listed for Colombia. Best I've been able to discover is that both track were available on an LP called El Mochilero on Philips 6346 029 in both mono and stereo. It seems that he was on Philips from 1962 through about 1970.

Two weird things about the record itself. The label area is a raised area that is LP label size, but the label itself is 78 size. In the run out grooves, in additin to the matrix, IL-11-71 is hand etched on both sides.

Granted his records are somewhat rare but it would seem odd to bootleg him especially as a 78. That said, even if it is boot, its kinda neat.

Amy


  8th Oct 2019, 5:49 PM#4  REPORT  
TheJudge

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There's this on 45 from 1980 with an earlier number, but there's also this 78 but with no date given.

Is it plausible that 78s were still being issued as a matter of course in Colombia at the start of the 80s? Or was there some special series of releases appealing to nostalgics or people in the boonies who only still had wind-up gramophones?


  8th Oct 2019, 6:54 PM#5  REPORT  
Jock_Girl

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Thanks for the info --- some digging led me to

6045502 - Clodomiro Montes

Those track were released on a 1970 LP

Traigo salsa

So -- if 6045 502 was a 1970 45 rpm, can it be that 6045 527 is a 1970/ 1971 78 (based on the matrix etching)?

Can we say gulp!

Amy


  9th Oct 2019, 10:38 AM#6  REPORT  
zabadak

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Jock_Girl wrote:
Thanks for the info --- some digging led me to

6045502 - Clodomiro Montes

Those track were released on a 1970 LP

Traigo salsa

So -- if 6045 502 was a 1970 45 rpm, can it be that 6045 527 is a 1970/ 1971 78 (based on the matrix etching)?

Can we say gulp!

Amy
I thought you didn't like that sort of thing... :sideways:


  13th Oct 2019, 10:08 AM#7  REPORT  
Fokeman

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I SERIOUSLY don't know what you mean here Zabadak!


  13th Oct 2019, 5:29 PM#8  REPORT  
Jock_Girl

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Fokeman wrote:
I SERIOUSLY don't know what you mean here Zabadak!

Zab is referring to the fact that I am dead set against people posting full matrix numbers with mother/ stamper indicia from the run out grooves because it is meaningless. Example -- label says matrix is 9966, but someone shows in notes Matrix 9966-D2. All that means is that stamper D2 was used for their particular pressing. Other people may have records pressed by stamper D1 or E2. Only 9966 is canon across all pressings of the record, not 9966 D2. In know in many cases records that I own are different stampers when compared to what soeone else has entered.

I know I'm a bit of pain about this, but I really feel that its extraneous info.

Amy

Edited by Jock_Girl on 13th Oct 2019, 9:18 PM

  13th Oct 2019, 7:50 PM#9  REPORT  
Fokeman

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Thanks for the explanation, Amy. I was having palpitations that he meant something else!

We all have our own little foibles. Not wanting to know about the tiniest minute detail about someone else's personal copy of a popular record doesn't seem in the slightest unreasonable.

Edited by Fokeman on 15th Oct 2019, 6:20 AM

  14th Oct 2019, 1:09 PM#10  REPORT  
zabadak

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Jock_Girl wrote:
Fokeman wrote:
I SERIOUSLY don't know what you mean here Zabadak!

Zab is referring to the fact that I am dead set against people posting full matrix numbers with mother/ stamper indicia from the run out grooves because it is meaningless. Example -- label says matrix is 9966, but someone shows in notes Matrix 9966-D2. All that means is that stamper D2 was used for their particular pressing. Other people may have records pressed by stamper D1 or E2. Only 9966 is canon across all pressings of the record, not 9966 D2. In know in many cases records that I own are different stampers when compared to what soeone else has entered.

I know I'm a bit of pain about this, but I really feel that its extraneous info.

Amy
Nonono, I thought you didn't like "repros" of things which weren't on 78 in the first place... :erk:


  14th Oct 2019, 9:14 PM#11  REPORT  
Jock_Girl

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zabadak wrote:
Nonono, I thought you didn't like "repros" of things which weren't on 78 in the first place... :erk:

Don't get me started on the idiotic RSD Beach Boys 78 of Good Vibrations! :angry:

Amy

Edited by Jock_Girl on 14th Oct 2019, 10:13 PM

  14th Oct 2019, 9:55 PM#12  REPORT  
zabadak

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Member since Jun 2010
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Jock_Girl wrote:
zabadak wrote:
Nonono, I thought you didn't like "repros" of things which weren't on 78 in the first place... :erk:

Don't get me started on the idiotic RSD Beach Boys 78 of Good Vibrations! :angry:

Amy
Zackly!!! :shocked:

Edited by moderator on 14th Oct 2019, 10:14 PM

  15th Oct 2019, 7:59 AM#13  REPORT  
Whyperion SUBS

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Dare you play the record, or do you want to wait for a second copy.

presumably it dates no earlier than 1970 from the information to hand so far. Was / Is there a Columbian news media regarding recordings and so on, is it in Portugese if so?

Discogs indicates these 6045 5nn series are Vinyl, 10" so are they similar to Pye/Mercury vinyl of the late 1950s uk?
More in the Series
6045 500

Different series but compare labels Brazil in 1963


Edited by Whyperion on 15th Oct 2019, 8:18 AM

  15th Oct 2019, 8:25 AM#14  REPORT  
Whyperion SUBS

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But is the LP referred to a compliation one - which could send it back to 1962 1963
This is a similar as a compliation Cartagena! Curro Fuentes & The Big Band Cumbia and Descarga Sound Of Colombia 1962 - 72 (Soundway Records)


  15th Oct 2019, 1:58 PM#15  REPORT  
Jock_Girl

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Member since Dec 2012
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I see evidence in both directions - pages at discogs that shows releases with similar catalogue numbers being in the 1970s and -- a youtube video that says that an LP the tracks are on was recorded in 1960 ...


One clue is that a 1970 45 on Philips has 'Manufactorado en Colombia por Industrias Fonoton S.A.'. This 78 does not show that and has Philips itself as the manufacturer.

Curious

Amy


  16th Oct 2019, 4:04 PM#16  REPORT  
Whyperion SUBS

Too Many Records , Too Little Time
Member since Jan 2013
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Industrias Fonoton S.A
Seem to be vinyl manufacturer mainly for Philips Labels from the late 1960s onwards.
Challenge to find a Philips from 1970 not carrying that text - were they sub-contract or acquired the rights.


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