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Cleaning a flaking acetate - advisable?   


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  7th Dec 2021, 5:13 AM#1  REPORT  
fantasista

Member since Feb 2015
435 Points
I recently bought a 78rpm acetate - thankfully at a negligible price - of which most of the surface is flaking away (in some areas totally delaminated), excepting the area of the recording itself, which is basically intact for now. I want to try to do a digital transfer of it as soon as possible, lest it deteriorate further, but the surface is visibly quite dusty. It's a Pyral acetate, with a flexible metal core.

Does anyone have experience dealing with damaged acetates? My normal method is to clean with a damp microfibre cloth, but I don't want to risk peeling off the recording in the process.

Edited by fantasista on 9th Dec 2021, 1:49 AM

  7th Dec 2021, 5:49 AM#2  REPORT  
getalife

So many questions, so few answers
Member since Nov 2010
877 Points
Moderator
Just a thought, could you run it on the turntable with (not knowing what they are called) a dust arm on its own, a little arm with a pad that picks up dust on records.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pro-Ject-Sweep-Turntable-Record-Cleaning-Black/dp/B07KCNWTM7/ref=asc_df_B07KCNWTM7/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=310815861304&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9536963527769441175&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9046083&hvtargid=pla-738357894150&psc=1

Edited by getalife on 7th Dec 2021, 6:00 AM

  7th Dec 2021, 10:17 AM#3  REPORT  
carryonsidney

a happy disposition is an omnious sign....
Member since Feb 2010
1707 Points
Moderator
A microfibre cloth would be a very bad idea on a flaking disc as they work in a similar way to velcro , its the lots of tiny loops in the material that snag dust etc, one of these cloths will probably terminally kill your disc.

I would suggest you find a really soft half or quarter inch artists brush and very lightly brush off the excess dirt and thats it.

(DRY not damp!)

Edited by carryonsidney on 7th Dec 2021, 10:50 PM

  7th Dec 2021, 6:57 PM#4  REPORT  
Break-In Master

Member since Dec 2013
251 Points
I would try to record it as is, first and THEN try to do a clean-up. If that helps, record it a second time. If all you can get is that one recording, there are computer programs that can help clean up the sound on what you were able to get. I've got three of them.
I've also got a couple records like that and, the longer you let them sit, the more of the record flakes off. A friend of mine came over years ago with a super rare break-in record from Australia on a 45 that was doing the same thing. I just recorded it as it was and, luckily, that was pretty much the last time it COULD be played! A small part of it wasn't even attached to the metal, anymore and just about ANY pressure could push it away from the metal! Luckily, t stayed put at least long enough for me to get a good recording of it. He eventually sold it a few years later for at least $3000. IF there actually are vinyl copies pressed, I don't know about it.

Edited by Break-In Master on 7th Dec 2021, 7:06 PM

  7th Dec 2021, 9:35 PM#5  REPORT  
fantasista

Member since Feb 2015
435 Points
Thanks very much to everyone for their replies, all extremely helpful.

As it happens, for some reason my initial google search didn't bring up anything useful, but using different keywords brought me to this page containing an exhaustive discussion of acetate cleaning techniques. Based on the advice you guys have given and the info on that page, I think I'll definitely stick to a light dry cleaning, with a camel hair brush. Since I started the thread I'll post the results when I'm done, assuming - God willing - I manage to get any.


  7th Dec 2021, 10:02 PM#6  REPORT  
Break-In Master

Member since Dec 2013
251 Points
It just occurred to me that, as far as I know, acetate is basically the same as fingernail polish so, I'm wondering if using a very thin layer of some would help to keep it attached to the metal long enough to play it, if not even clean it before playing it? Students??


  7th Dec 2021, 11:06 PM#7  REPORT  
getalife

So many questions, so few answers
Member since Nov 2010
877 Points
Moderator
I would still recommend using a dust arm on a very light setting as that follows the grooves as the record rotates as to using a brush that may push against its natural path, ether way both would be better than micro cloth.

I use this method on my acetates https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Od7v0m9_6cI


  9th Dec 2021, 2:34 AM#8  REPORT  
fantasista

Member since Feb 2015
435 Points
Well... as for "results," I can only use the term loosely. It was an inside-out recording, containing a translation into German of Mussolini's declaration of war of June 10, 1940, and two other pieces of radio dialogue on the opposite side. I was able to play through the A-side recording once, although unfortunately the last eighth of an inch or so was simply gone before I started. The B-side (as the pictures show) was in much worse shape, as an amateur with a consumer turntable I'm not sure I can get any more than the snippets in-between the bare metal I managed to record.

Photos of the disc

Audio 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

Because it's a radio acetate, and what it contains, I assume it's not a unique record, so it's a consolation to think someone out there may have one that's intact. And now I have to do a little begging: if one of our users who speaks German natively could tell me what's being said in the last 4 links (assuming you can make it out), I would appreciate it.

Edited by fantasista on 9th Dec 2021, 2:41 AM

  9th Dec 2021, 4:49 AM#9  REPORT  
Break-In Master

Member since Dec 2013
251 Points
What about one of those little brushes you clip onto the side of the needle that dusts the groove in front of the needle?


  9th Dec 2021, 5:07 AM#10  REPORT  
Break-In Master

Member since Dec 2013
251 Points
fantasista wrote:
Well... as for "results," I can only use the term loosely. It was an inside-out recording, containing a translation into German of Mussolini's declaration of war of June 10, 1940, and two other pieces of radio dialogue on the opposite side. I was able to play through the A-side recording once, although unfortunately the last eighth of an inch or so was simply gone before I started. The B-side (as the pictures show) was in much worse shape, as an amateur with a consumer turntable I'm not sure I can get any more than the snippets in-between the bare metal I managed to record.

Photos of the disc

Audio 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

Because it's a radio acetate, and what it contains, I assume it's not a unique record, so it's a consolation to think someone out there may have one that's intact. And now I have to do a little begging: if one of our users who speaks German natively could tell me what's being said in the last 4 links (assuming you can make it out), I would appreciate it.

Whoozh!! That's pretty rough!! I'd say that's WAY more than just LIGHTLY flaking!
The noise is way louder than the recording! Towards the end of the last part I heard the names, Adolph Hitler and Mussolini.


  9th Dec 2021, 10:19 AM#11  REPORT  
fantasista

Member since Feb 2015
435 Points
It disintegrated as it played, there were bits of lacquer breaking off as the needle tracked it, definitely more than light flakes indeed!


  9th Dec 2021, 11:59 AM#12  REPORT  
carryonsidney

a happy disposition is an omnious sign....
Member since Feb 2010
1707 Points
Moderator
You should add it to 45worlds, I would say this is probably unique and historically interesting as looking at the handwriting clearly by a german person of the period - presumably in 1945, at which side of the end of the war, who knows but I wouldnt be surprised if it came from the propaganda ministry of the 3rd reich?

the note on the disc appears to translate as "on notice B205".


  9th Dec 2021, 4:40 PM#13  REPORT  
fantasista

Member since Feb 2015
435 Points
carryonsidney wrote:
You should add it to 45worlds, I would say this is probably unique and historically interesting as looking at the handwriting clearly by a german person of the period - presumably in 1945, at which side of the end of the war, who knows but I wouldnt be surprised if it came from the propaganda ministry of the 3rd reich?

the note on the disc appears to translate as "on notice B205".
Will do!

While I'm not an expert on this kind of material, I have read that many if not all German war bulletins and propaganda pieces during WWII were recorded on magnetic tape, i.e. one can hear that the pieces in this compilation sound like they come from tapes. So for that reason, I'm hopeful that the recording does still exist somewhere.


  9th Dec 2021, 8:57 PM#14  REPORT  
Break-In Master

Member since Dec 2013
251 Points
fantasista wrote:
It disintegrated as it played, there were bits of lacquer breaking off as the needle tracked it, definitely more than light flakes indeed!

It's possible the weight of the needle caused that. I mean, you said you were using a cheaper turntable (from what I gather).


  9th Dec 2021, 9:03 PM#15  REPORT  
Break-In Master

Member since Dec 2013
251 Points
fantasista wrote:
carryonsidney wrote:
You should add it to 45worlds, I would say this is probably unique and historically interesting as looking at the handwriting clearly by a german person of the period - presumably in 1945, at which side of the end of the war, who knows but I wouldnt be surprised if it came from the propaganda ministry of the 3rd reich?

the note on the disc appears to translate as "on notice B205".
Will do!

While I'm not an expert on this kind of material, I have read that many if not all German war bulletins and propaganda pieces during WWII were recorded on magnetic tape, i.e. one can hear that the pieces in this compilation sound like they come from tapes. So for that reason, I'm hopeful that the recording does still exist somewhere.

Recording tape?? As far as I know, that wasn't invented until years later thanks to Les Paul.


  10th Dec 2021, 2:05 PM#16  REPORT  
fantasista

Member since Feb 2015
435 Points
Break-In Master wrote:
fantasista wrote:
carryonsidney wrote:
You should add it to 45worlds, I would say this is probably unique and historically interesting as looking at the handwriting clearly by a german person of the period - presumably in 1945, at which side of the end of the war, who knows but I wouldnt be surprised if it came from the propaganda ministry of the 3rd reich?

the note on the disc appears to translate as "on notice B205".
Will do!

While I'm not an expert on this kind of material, I have read that many if not all German war bulletins and propaganda pieces during WWII were recorded on magnetic tape, i.e. one can hear that the pieces in this compilation sound like they come from tapes. So for that reason, I'm hopeful that the recording does still exist somewhere.

Recording tape?? As far as I know, that wasn't invented until years later thanks to Les Paul.
I don't know when it became widely used in the music industry, but at least according to wiki:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_tape

it was invented in Germany in 1928, and used by the Reich Propaganda Ministry during the war.


  10th Dec 2021, 3:00 PM#17  REPORT  
Break-In Master

Member since Dec 2013
251 Points
fantasista wrote:
Break-In Master wrote:
fantasista wrote:
carryonsidney wrote:
You should add it to 45worlds, I would say this is probably unique and historically interesting as looking at the handwriting clearly by a german person of the period - presumably in 1945, at which side of the end of the war, who knows but I wouldnt be surprised if it came from the propaganda ministry of the 3rd reich?

the note on the disc appears to translate as "on notice B205".
Will do!

While I'm not an expert on this kind of material, I have read that many if not all German war bulletins and propaganda pieces during WWII were recorded on magnetic tape, i.e. one can hear that the pieces in this compilation sound like they come from tapes. So for that reason, I'm hopeful that the recording does still exist somewhere.

Recording tape?? As far as I know, that wasn't invented until years later thanks to Les Paul.
I don't know when it became widely used in the music industry, but at least according to wiki:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_tape

it was invented in Germany in 1928, and used by the Reich Propaganda Ministry during the war.
Okay, I just remember that Les Paul invented the tape recorder in the late `40's or early `50's. I'm sure the wire recorder existed back in the 20's. Dad said he used to have one and he was born in `24.


  10th Dec 2021, 5:24 PM#18  REPORT  
carryonsidney

a happy disposition is an omnious sign....
Member since Feb 2010
1707 Points
Moderator
In fact at the wars end it was the US Army that took away the tape technology to the USA, where it was researched and made into the commercial items of tape and recording machines that became industry standard (mostly RCA?) I believe it was Bing Crosby who was a major investor of this right at the beginning and went on to make most of his fortune from that business.
Les Paul did not invent recording tape he more or least invented the technique for Multi track recording, which was subsequently adopted by all the studios, again this was at the behest of Bing Crosby who gave him an early Ampex machine.


  10th Dec 2021, 8:38 PM#19  REPORT  
Break-In Master

Member since Dec 2013
251 Points
carryonsidney wrote:
In fact at the wars end it was the US Army that took away the tape technology to the USA, where it was researched and made into the commercial items of tape and recording machines that became industry standard (mostly RCA?) I believe it was Bing Crosby who was a major investor of this right at the beginning and went on to make most of his fortune from that business.
Les Paul did not invent recording tape he more or least invented the technique for Multi track recording, which was subsequently adopted by all the studios, again this was at the behest of Bing Crosby who gave him an early Ampex machine.
Oh!! That's right! It was multi--tracking!! This insane shit my ex-sisters put me through the past few years has really done a number on my head!! Some things I used to know by heart I have to try to "re-learn" all over again!! Even computer programs I used to use almost all day almost every day for the past 20-some years, I've had to figure out how to use again!! If only mom & dad stopped having kids after my brother, I'd be in great shape, right now!! If only I could go back to 1959 and warn them!!


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