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| 25th Sep 2023, 8:14 PM | #1 REPORT | |
 | Mike Wilson1 Musicologist Member since Dec 2019 26 Points | The Missing Charts January 1940 – October 1952 was a book edited by Steve Walters as part of The British Hit Singles series, that aimed to cover the period of sheet music sales in the UK prior to the institution of the Top Twenty Charts in November 1952. This period covered of course the years of World War II and the progression and ultimate demise of the popular Dance Bands of the era and household names back then would elicit blank stares today. To see what was popular in these pages is an education in itself as many homes had their own piano and no TV sets so an evenings entertainment could be the family getting around the old “Joanna” to try out the latest hits of the day…It was then that a particular idea struck me that this social history should not be forgotten but encouraged and I decided that I would collect EVERY recording mentioned in the tomes pages by the artists attributed to a particular song. I thought that it would be easy but no!.......During the early years of the Second World War of course people had more to think about than the latest band release as bombs were dropping everywhere, rationing was in vogue and entertainment tax was put on records….In some areas you could not buy a new 78rpm disc unless you took an old record as well to be recycled as shellac was in limited supply….Also, many homes were wrecked along with those precious record players and records. Anyway I began with the first printed sheet of popular sheet music issued January 8th 1940 and top of the shop that week was our darling Vera Lynn with “We’ll Meet Again”……Many Dance Bands started to be regular names on each weeks sheets such as Joe Loss, Harry Roy, Nat Gonella and Carroll Gibbons with their respective orchestras…..This was not a one man effort as I was able to contact many collectors and members who were of great assistance in my quest so that by the end of the 1940 lists and many many hundreds of records I had managed to procure all but 5 elusive recordings. 1941 saw an influx of new but welcome names such as Artie Shaw, Jimmy Dorsey, Geraldo and Turner Layton and the hunt continued with a vengeance including George Formby, Gene Autry and more from the lovely Vera…..and who could not recall Billy Cotton, Arthur Askey and one of the first popular groups, The Ink Spots……Also a little bit more success as I obtained all but 2 of the recordings for this whole year. The listings of 1942 began with the epic “Warsaw Concerto” by Louis Kentner at the apex of the first sheet sales which also included the likes of Jay Wilbur, Glenn Miller, Leslie Hutchinson tickling the ivory when he wasn’t tickling someone else and the fruit encrusted Carmen Miranda…..Shops were searched, barns ransacked and Ebay perused which by the end of that 12 month period resulted in there being only 5 records that eluded the “Poirot of The Platters”. Dance bands were very much to the fore in 1943 as there was a small relaxation of the rules of crowds gathering and many did, to hear their heroes of the Dance Hall, Harry James, Victor Silvester, Ambrose and Harry Parry…not forgetting more offerings from many afore mentioned luminaries…It was a many & varied collection of artists who supplied enjoyment to the masses in this year….Flanagan & Allen were still going strong, Richard Tauber satisfied the light opera devotees and Monte Rey gave his voice and heart to some wonderful songs….I have managed to get all but 4 of the popular records of that year. 1944 saw no relaxation of hostilities and many a sweetheart would have pined over the sounds of Ivy Benson, Bing Crosby, the superb Dorothy Carless….even Irving Berlin himself got in on the act…Times were hard and things were tight….indeed this hardness also resulted in 10 of the recordings of that year not finding their way into the collection, not even on a Wing & A Prayer. I considered 1945 to be roughly at the midway point in this epic hunt and some of the best music was certainly to be heard in this period…..Many different acts became popular recording the same song so you could have had 4-5-6 or more versions of a song competing for your pennies….One song “My Favourite Dream”, has eluded me by three different artists !!......Only 8 releases have escaped my clutches from the end of the war year…… So from all the recordings released from 1940-1945 that were very popular with the Great British public and this runs into well over 1100 records, I have managed to rustle together by hook or by crook all but 35 which I do not think is too bad at all seeing as I am housebound and cannot now go out searching for these hidden hits myself.......All help appreciated to locate the elusive 35 records . I am now going through 1946 but I put this epistle down in the belief that you might find it interesting what collectors go through to satisfy their cravings and seek the Holy Grail of a Wants list that stands at….0 Edited by Mike Wilson1 on 25th Sep 2023, 11:14 PM |
| 27th Sep 2023, 1:55 AM | #2 REPORT | |
 | mister_tmg Also on 78rpm Member since Apr 2012 1118 Points | Very interesting, Mike, but I must correct you. The Missing Charts book does not capture British sheet music sales, but those of records, so I think you must have got confused there (the Warsaw Concerto made #3 on sheet music sales). I believe the data comes from shipment figures obtained by the late Colin Brown. The book was published after his death. It is titled “The British Hit Singles Jan 1940 - Oct 1952: The Missing Charts”. Despite the title, it isn’t actually part of the Guinness series of the same name. When the published record charts began in November 1952, it was a top 12 - it didn’t become a top 20 until 1954, I think. Harry James was an American bandleader - did he appear in British dance halls in 1943? I’m not sure Victor Silvester was particularly active as a live performer either, being more prominent on records and radio. The book was published ten years ago, and I recently managed to track down a copy, as it is now rather elusive. Interesting as it is, I think it should be taken with a large pinch of salt. Didn’t you find several hundred errors in the book, Mike? It lists records that don’t even exist! |
| 27th Sep 2023, 8:51 AM | #3 REPORT | |
| Mike Wilson1 Musicologist Member since Dec 2019 26 Points |
mister_tmg wrote:
Very interesting, Mike, but I must correct you. The Missing Charts book does not capture British sheet music sales, but those of records, so I think you must have got confused there (the Warsaw Concerto made #3 on sheet music sales). I believe the data comes from shipment figures obtained by the late Colin Brown. The book was published after his death. It is titled “The British Hit Singles Jan 1940 - Oct 1952: The Missing Charts”. Despite the title, it isn’t actually part of the Guinness series of the same name. When the published record charts began in November 1952, it was a top 12 - it didn’t become a top 20 until 1954, I think. Harry James was an American bandleader - did he appear in British dance halls in 1943? I’m not sure Victor Silvester was particularly active as a live performer either, being more prominent on records and radio.
The book was published ten years ago, and I recently managed to track down a copy, as it is now rather elusive. Interesting as it is, I think it should be taken with a large pinch of salt. Didn’t you find several hundred errors in the book, Mike? It lists records that don’t even exist! Yes many errors are indeed in the book....wrong artists, misnamed, wrong titles, catalogue numbers etc and indeed some that I have yet to see real evidence that they exist at all but I am confused as the book clearly states that it is based on sales of sheet music.....In fact it sometimes lists a song and it says "not attributed to a particular artist" which would be difficult I guess with a record |
| 27th Sep 2023, 9:41 AM | #4 REPORT | |
| danceband91 ● Member since Nov 2020 119 Points | My understanding is also that the information was based on sales of records as opposed to sheet music. Although I don't have the book (if anyone knows where you can still get it, please tell me!), there is a video about it on youtube which seems to back that up - it has interviews with both Steven Waters and Colin Brown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dpoxx2svXc4 |
| 27th Sep 2023, 10:35 AM | #5 REPORT | |
| Mike Wilson1 Musicologist Member since Dec 2019 26 Points |
danceband91 wrote:
My understanding is also that the information was based on sales of records as opposed to sheet music. Although I don't have the book (if anyone knows where you can still get it, please tell me!), there is a video about it on youtube which seems to back that up - it has interviews with both Steven Waters and Colin Brown:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dpoxx2svXc4 Just re-read all the forewords on the book and it is definately based on Sheet Music Sales.....100% |
| 27th Sep 2023, 12:11 PM | #6 REPORT | |
| danceband91 ● Member since Nov 2020 119 Points |
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
Just re-read all the forewords on the book and it is definately based on Sheet Music Sales.....100%
I believe you Mike, but I don't understand how that can be the case! If it were based on Sheet Music sales, how come they report different versions of the same song at different positions in the chart. I suppose Sheet Music did specify an artist in some sense (the 'as recorded/broadcast by' tagline, of which there were multiple versions), but surely what artist you got when you bought the music was just luck of the draw! |
| 27th Sep 2023, 1:11 PM | #7 REPORT | |
| Mike Wilson1 Musicologist Member since Dec 2019 26 Points |
danceband91 wrote:
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
Just re-read all the forewords on the book and it is definately based on Sheet Music Sales.....100%
I believe you Mike, but I don't understand how that can be the case! If it were based on Sheet Music sales, how come they report different versions of the same song at different positions in the chart. I suppose Sheet Music did specify an artist in some sense (the 'as recorded/broadcast by' tagline, of which there were multiple versions), but surely what artist you got when you bought the music was just luck of the draw![/quote Yes it is full of anomalies whichever way you look at it.....The whole idea is fraught with problems from start to finish.....I have noticed by using the book that New Entries only happened every third week on an extremely regular basis and some entries in the chart say "No particular artist named".....It is the best we have so I guess it is something, not ideal really.....Of the first 1100 "records" in the book I have all but 35 of them and 6 of those nobody has ever seen !! |
| 27th Sep 2023, 1:25 PM | #8 REPORT | |
| Mike Wilson1 Musicologist Member since Dec 2019 26 Points | And then of course I could have it all wrong, I don't have a problem of admitting that |
| 27th Sep 2023, 1:48 PM | #9 REPORT | |
| danceband91 ● Member since Nov 2020 119 Points |
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
Yes it is full of anomalies whichever way you look at it.....The whole idea is fraught with problems from start to finish.....I have noticed by using the book that New Entries only happened every third week on an extremely regular basis and some entries in the chart say "No particular artist named".....It is the best we have so I guess it is something, not ideal really.....Of the first 1100 "records" in the book I have all but 35 of them and 6 of those nobody has ever seen !!
I believe record companies were in the habit of releasing new records in batches, so that might explain why new entries occur mainly together. It's a shame that they don't make it abundantly clear where the information has come from, but perhaps they felt doing so would have opened them up to a unwanted level of scrutiny (or maybe they're not quite sure themselves!). But as you say, it's the best we have, so we'll have to live with it. I must say I haven't come across any instances of "no particular artist named", but then again I'm using the second-hand information on this website: hitsofalldecades. I was assuming it was a faithful transcription of the book, but perhaps it's slightly different. By the way, what are the 6 records that no-one has ever seen? |
| 27th Sep 2023, 2:26 PM | #10 REPORT | |
| Mike Wilson1 Musicologist Member since Dec 2019 26 Points | |
| 27th Sep 2023, 2:28 PM | #11 REPORT | |
| Mike Wilson1 Musicologist Member since Dec 2019 26 Points |
danceband91 wrote:
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
Yes it is full of anomalies whichever way you look at it.....The whole idea is fraught with problems from start to finish.....I have noticed by using the book that New Entries only happened every third week on an extremely regular basis and some entries in the chart say "No particular artist named".....It is the best we have so I guess it is something, not ideal really.....Of the first 1100 "records" in the book I have all but 35 of them and 6 of those nobody has ever seen !!
I believe record companies were in the habit of releasing new records in batches, so that might explain why new entries occur mainly together. It's a shame that they don't make it abundantly clear where the information has come from, but perhaps they felt doing so would have opened them up to a unwanted level of scrutiny (or maybe they're not quite sure themselves!). But as you say, it's the best we have, so we'll have to live with it. I must say I haven't come across any instances of "no particular artist named", but then again I'm using the second-hand information on this website: hitsofalldecades. I was assuming it was a faithful transcription of the book, but perhaps it's slightly different. By the way, what are the 6 records that no-one has ever seen? 1. Goodnight Children Everywhere - Phyllis Robins Parlophone F 1643 2. My Daddy - Phyllis Robins Parlophone F 1703 3. If Tears Could Bring You Back - The Organ, The Dance Band & Me Parlophone F1786 4. By Candlelight - Turner Layton Columbia FB 2771 5. Dreaming -Beryl Davis Decca F 7472 6. Do You Care - Geraldo & His Orchestra Parlophone F 1889 Many have shown me these mentioned in listings and adverts but no 100% proof of anyone saying they have any of them, heard them or a photo of any of them.....Again I really would love to be wrong |
| 27th Sep 2023, 2:31 PM | #12 REPORT | |
| scrough No picture 'cos I'm not into 45rpm :( Member since Jan 2013 3425 Points Moderator |
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
....I have noticed by using the book that New Entries only happened every third week on an extremely regular basis and some entries in the chart say "No particular artist named".....
|
| 27th Sep 2023, 3:18 PM | #13 REPORT | |
| danceband91 ● Member since Nov 2020 119 Points |
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
4. By Candlelight - Turner Layton Columbia FB 2771
https://gripsweat.com/item/301863380744/large-collection-of-layton-johnstone-and-turner-layton-records: |
| 27th Sep 2023, 4:12 PM | #14 REPORT | |
| mister_tmg Also on 78rpm Member since Apr 2012 1118 Points |
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
danceband91 wrote:
My understanding is also that the information was based on sales of records as opposed to sheet music. Although I don't have the book (if anyone knows where you can still get it, please tell me!), there is a video about it on youtube which seems to back that up - it has interviews with both Steven Waters and Colin Brown:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dpoxx2svXc4 Just re-read all the forewords on the book and it is definately based on Sheet Music Sales.....100% Can you provide a quote to back this up? I’m afraid you are wrong on this, Mike. The book is definitely not based on sheet music sales. It doesn’t match the sheet music charts that were actually published at the time! Why would we need retrospective sheet music charts when they were compiled and published during this period - albeit with many gaps during the war? The website for the book is now gone, but it is on the Internet Archive: https://tinyurl.com/Missingcharts The foreword can be read here: https://tinyurl.com/Missingchartsforeword Surely the clue is in the book title… “singles” refers to records, not sheet music! I would bet many of these tracks never made the contemporary sheet music charts, and vice versa. |
| 27th Sep 2023, 4:31 PM | #15 REPORT | |
| mister_tmg Also on 78rpm Member since Apr 2012 1118 Points |
danceband91 wrote:
My understanding is also that the information was based on sales of records as opposed to sheet music. Although I don't have the book (if anyone knows where you can still get it, please tell me!), there is a video about it on youtube which seems to back that up - it has interviews with both Steven Waters and Colin Brown:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dpoxx2svXc4 |
| 27th Sep 2023, 4:50 PM | #16 REPORT | |
| Mike Wilson1 Musicologist Member since Dec 2019 26 Points |
mister_tmg wrote:
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
danceband91 wrote:
My understanding is also that the information was based on sales of records as opposed to sheet music. Although I don't have the book (if anyone knows where you can still get it, please tell me!), there is a video about it on youtube which seems to back that up - it has interviews with both Steven Waters and Colin Brown:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dpoxx2svXc4 Just re-read all the forewords on the book and it is definately based on Sheet Music Sales.....100% Well as I say I am quite happy to be wrong if that is the case, I'm wrong about a lot of things as I approach severe old age....It has stimulated a bit of discussion about a subject we all love Can you provide a quote to back this up? I’m afraid you are wrong on this, Mike. The book is definitely not based on sheet music sales. It doesn’t match the sheet music charts that were actually published at the time! Why would we need retrospective sheet music charts when they were compiled and published during this period - albeit with many gaps during the war? The website for the book is now gone, but it is on the Internet Archive: https://tinyurl.com/Missingcharts The foreword can be read here: https://tinyurl.com/Missingchartsforeword Surely the clue is in the book title… “singles” refers to records, not sheet music! I would bet many of these tracks never made the contemporary sheet music charts, and vice versa. |
| 27th Sep 2023, 4:54 PM | #17 REPORT | |
| Mike Wilson1 Musicologist Member since Dec 2019 26 Points |
danceband91 wrote:
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
4. By Candlelight - Turner Layton Columbia FB 2771
https://gripsweat.com/item/301863380744/large-collection-of-layton-johnstone-and-turner-layton-records: I may have to withdraw that one......(Possibly) !!! |
| 27th Sep 2023, 5:48 PM | #18 REPORT | |
| mister_tmg Also on 78rpm Member since Apr 2012 1118 Points |
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
mister_tmg wrote:
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
danceband91 wrote:
My understanding is also that the information was based on sales of records as opposed to sheet music. Although I don't have the book (if anyone knows where you can still get it, please tell me!), there is a video about it on youtube which seems to back that up - it has interviews with both Steven Waters and Colin Brown:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dpoxx2svXc4 Just re-read all the forewords on the book and it is definately based on Sheet Music Sales.....100% Well as I say I am quite happy to be wrong if that is the case, I'm wrong about a lot of things as I approach severe old age....It has stimulated a bit of discussion about a subject we all love Can you provide a quote to back this up? I’m afraid you are wrong on this, Mike. The book is definitely not based on sheet music sales. It doesn’t match the sheet music charts that were actually published at the time! Why would we need retrospective sheet music charts when they were compiled and published during this period - albeit with many gaps during the war? The website for the book is now gone, but it is on the Internet Archive: https://tinyurl.com/Missingcharts The foreword can be read here: https://tinyurl.com/Missingchartsforeword Surely the clue is in the book title… “singles” refers to records, not sheet music! I would bet many of these tracks never made the contemporary sheet music charts, and vice versa. Mike, it would help if you put your replies to quotes beneath the quoted sections, otherwise I have to search for your response… in this case, you wrote “Well as I say I am quite happy to be wrong if that is the case, I'm wrong about a lot of things as I approach severe old age....It has stimulated a bit of discussion about a subject we all love”, which appears within the quoted text. I think it’s good when people are happy to be wrong. Far too many collectors and enthusiasts of varying kinds think they know everything, and won’t accept being corrected - they may even take offence, but surely we all just want to get to the truth about our interests? |
| 27th Sep 2023, 5:57 PM | #19 REPORT | |
| Mike Wilson1 Musicologist Member since Dec 2019 26 Points |
mister_tmg wrote:
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
mister_tmg wrote:
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
danceband91 wrote:
My understanding is also that the information was based on sales of records as opposed to sheet music. Although I don't have the book (if anyone knows where you can still get it, please tell me!), there is a video about it on youtube which seems to back that up - it has interviews with both Steven Waters and Colin Brown:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dpoxx2svXc4 Just re-read all the forewords on the book and it is definately based on Sheet Music Sales.....100% Well as I say I am quite happy to be wrong if that is the case, I'm wrong about a lot of things as I approach severe old age....It has stimulated a bit of discussion about a subject we all love Can you provide a quote to back this up? I’m afraid you are wrong on this, Mike. The book is definitely not based on sheet music sales. It doesn’t match the sheet music charts that were actually published at the time! Why would we need retrospective sheet music charts when they were compiled and published during this period - albeit with many gaps during the war? The website for the book is now gone, but it is on the Internet Archive: https://tinyurl.com/Missingcharts The foreword can be read here: https://tinyurl.com/Missingchartsforeword Surely the clue is in the book title… “singles” refers to records, not sheet music! I would bet many of these tracks never made the contemporary sheet music charts, and vice versa. Mike, it would help if you put your replies to quotes beneath the quoted sections, otherwise I have to search for your response… in this case, you wrote “Well as I say I am quite happy to be wrong if that is the case, I'm wrong about a lot of things as I approach severe old age....It has stimulated a bit of discussion about a subject we all love”, which appears within the quoted text. I think it’s good when people are happy to be wrong. Far too many collectors and enthusiasts of varying kinds think they know everything, and won’t accept being corrected - they may even take offence, but surely we all just want to get to the truth about our interests? I realise that the more I learn, the less I know.....It is most certainly not worth falling out over.....Your corrections are not motivated by malice but surely to help the understanding of another member which I am thankful for....I get my grandchildrens names wrong too !........Believe it or not, I appeared On "Mastermind" in 1983 !! |
| 27th Sep 2023, 10:34 PM | #20 REPORT | |
| mister_tmg Also on 78rpm Member since Apr 2012 1118 Points | Yes indeed, no malice intended, just trying to set the record straight (if you’ll pardon the pun). The book First Hits by Brian Henson & Colin Morgan covers sheet music sales from 1946 to 1959. Sheet music charts were published in the press from 1937 to 1965 (with gaps in the war). After 1965, the Music Publishers’ Association continued to compile the charts until the early 1980s. I wonder what your specialist subject on Mastermind was, Mike. |
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