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| 7th Dec 2012, 3:14 PM | #1 REPORT | |
 | Dr Doom SUBS I wanna eat an artichoke once in a while Member since Feb 2008 25440 Points Administrator | Just a reminder for folks that we're trying to avoid crediting 'nameless' accompaniments like Orchestras and Chorus's So a record credited to say Harry James And His Orchestra Should be entered as just Harry James and the full credit Harry James And His Orchestra added to notes. It's fine to credit things like 'named' backing bands especially ones who are quite well known and may even have made records in their own right. i.e. The Ink Spots, The Blue Caps and alike. Other than that things are off to a flying start!  Edited by Dr Doom on 7th Dec 2012, 3:14 PM |
| 7th Dec 2012, 4:39 PM | #2 REPORT | |
 | W.B.lbl The Collector's Collector Member since Feb 2012 3799 Points Moderator | Ah, but what about acts like Horace Heidt And His Musical Knights? Would this mean any of his records should in the future be entered as Horace Heidt? |
| 7th Dec 2012, 4:53 PM | #3 REPORT | |
 | doormanperdomo Member since Jun 2010 16956 Points Moderator | I went for the full bhoona on Henry Hall And His Gleneagles Hotel Band. H.H. will, no doubt, appear in various incarnations, but I reckoned the G.H. band was important - first ever recorded on radio. Apart from that, it (G.H.) used to be one of my favourite watering holes (in the days when I could afford it / someone else was paying). I know - editor's decision is final - sentimentality insufficient grounds for defence!! Edited by doormanperdomo on 7th Dec 2012, 4:54 PM |
| 7th Dec 2012, 5:07 PM | #4 REPORT | |
| Dr Doom SUBS I wanna eat an artichoke once in a while Member since Feb 2008 25440 Points Administrator | I would class those two as 'named' backing artists. Quite possibly specific to that artist so it's fine to include them if you think they are important. It's the faceless 'and chorus' 'and orchestra' 'and his band' 'and his orchestra and chorus' stuff that we're hoping to cut down on.  |
| 5th Jan 2013, 6:33 AM | #5 REPORT | |
 | LaurenceD SUBS Member since Aug 2011 7819 Points Moderator | Omitting the orchestra / band / chorus tag makes good sense to me, along with other things like group, combo and such. And it seems like I should include things like "and his Rhythm Kings" or "with his All-Star Band". But what do you think about something like "John Smith and his Sextet" or "The John Smith Quintet". I guess that I am inclined to include those as-is. By the way, I have around another 1,000 items to add here. If you would like any help in linking artists, or other menial tasks, I would be happy to contribute.  |
| 27th Jan 2013, 3:25 PM | #6 REPORT | |
 | RadoxTheGreen Wait, I have to scan what now? Member since Jan 2013 772 Points Moderator | You might have to watch for things like "Ada Jones and American Quartet", or similar team ups. American Quartet were artists in their own right. Some of the labels had their own bands/orchestras, and often more than one (e.g. Edison Military Band, Edison Symphony Orchestra, Edison Concert Band, Edison Grand Concert Band, Edison Light Opera Co). Again, these often recorded as artists in their own right. Also, some artists started with a band and went on to record with a (credited) orchestra, or changed the name of the band when they changed their music style. The world and his wife used to have an orchestra, and those that didn't had a quartet. I think it adds to the period charm to have the various bands etc. credited in each artists section, but I wouldn't want to have to enter them when doing a search. That's getting a bit too much like another site I could mention, where I've had more than one album search draw a blank because I didn't put "and his band" or whatever in the search box. |
| 27th Jan 2013, 7:16 PM | #7 REPORT | |
| Whyperion SUBS Too Many Records , Too Little Time Member since Jan 2013 306 Points | Crossing over to 45 era as well , Where we get things like Ted Heath and his Music, Kenny Ball and His Jazzmen. But more prevalent in the 78 era was the transistion from + His Orchestra , with either Vocal as a note on the label , or with Vocal Accompaniment / Solo/ Refrain , to naming the Vocalist , to the Vocalist becoming centre stage and named with the Band becoming the annotation , to Vocalist - with orchestral accompaniment. I suppose one extreme might be Adrian Rollini , whom initially recorded un-named , on Bass Saxophone with California Ramblers , the Little Ramblers and Goofus Five ( I think there might have been a Goofus Trio too ), but then on in 1933 to his own Adrian Rollini Orchestra , Adrian Rollini Quintette, The Adrian Rollini Trio, and Adrian and his Tap Room Gang. Quite why the prefix of Band Leader only should be chosen when there is a With or an And , yet the whole group name included if there is a Descriptive The at commencement of name I feel needs a good reason to restrict. |
| 6th Feb 2013, 6:24 PM | #8 REPORT | |
| Whyperion SUBS Too Many Records , Too Little Time Member since Jan 2013 306 Points | Just Added http://www.45worlds.com/78rpm/record/rx58 With B Side Artist/s Dennis King, with Raymond Newell, Jack Livesey, Robert Woollard And Musketeers. Probably not the longest performer credits ( taking up 3 lines on the label - extend to five if one included With Drury Lane Theatre Orchestra Conducted by Herman Finck ) |
| 6th Mar 2013, 2:35 PM | #9 REPORT | |
| neslo4 Member since Jan 2013 22 Points | How should one enter the artist name, when f.ex. the label says (example translated from danish, but I believe it is very common on particularly older records): "Paul Godwin's Orchestra. Refrain: Viggo Larsen". Is it (1) Paul Godwin and Viggo Larsen, (2) Paul Godwin, Viggo Larsen - or just (3) Paul Godwin (with full credit shown in a note)? The problem was outlined a bit by Whyperion on 27th January in the first paragraph. It seems that in the earlier days the orchestra was often the "main" artist and the singer somewhat in the background. |
| 6th Mar 2013, 6:50 PM | #10 REPORT | |
| lorangrecords SUBS ● (Ulf) Member since Jan 2013 5847 Points Moderator | I think Paul Goodwin is good enough. You can just add the full name in the notes, and maybe give Viggo Larsen his own row with Vocal by Viggo L. or so. This must be the intention in which I belive. |
| 13th Mar 2013, 11:03 AM | #11 REPORT | |
| Dr Doom SUBS I wanna eat an artichoke once in a while Member since Feb 2008 25440 Points Administrator |
neslo4 wrote:
How should one enter the artist name, when f.ex. the label says (example translated from danish, but I believe it is very common on particularly older records): "Paul Godwin's Orchestra. Refrain: Viggo Larsen". Is it (1) Paul Godwin and Viggo Larsen, (2) Paul Godwin, Viggo Larsen - or just (3) Paul Godwin (with full credit shown in a note)?
The problem was outlined a bit by Whyperion on 27th January in the first paragraph. It seems that in the earlier days the orchestra was often the "main" artist and the singer somewhat in the background. I'm not sure about this to be honest. I kind of agree with lorangerecords but seen as it's not really my era of collecting/knowledge I'd like to hear what others think. Would 78 collectors be after every record by a certain conductor or arranger? Is the vocalist sometimes secondary? |
| 13th Mar 2013, 4:29 PM | #12 REPORT | |
| neslo4 Member since Jan 2013 22 Points | Thanks to lorangrecords and Dr.Doom for your comments. I tend to agree with lorangrecords, but since I made the post about a week ago, I have done some more thinking on the subject. This was partly prompted by yet another record from my small 78rpm collection. Only this time the vocalist later made a name for himself and had several records released as the "main"-artist. In this case it would be nice to have him listed as artist in his own right. Perhaps it should be left to the judgement of the contributors how to make the entries? Often the contributers may have the necessary knowledge to determine if the vocalist needs a special listing. One of course always has the option of making an "all" search. I do believe that some collectors may search for recordings by particular bandleaders or conductors. In earlier days many bands were featured on radio (the Dorsey's, Edmundo Ros, Victor Silvester etc.). Also larger bands performed in dance restaurants and night-clubs etc. This has by now, I think, almost disappeared, because none of these establishments can afford it anymore. Very often these bands included vocalists, who were not the main attraction, but were more like a "supplement" to the band. I must point out, that I wholly agree to the attempt made on 78cat to remove the "and .. orchestra" etc., in order to make listings more simple and clear. So in my case with the first record (my example), I would list only "Paul Godwin" as artist - and then make notes along the lines suggested by lorangrecords. But with the second example, I would list both the bandleader and the vocalist as artists. Unless of course guide-lines appear to the contrary. Will it, by the way, be acceptable to write the artists as: Paul Godwin, Viggo Larsen (i.e. using "," instead of "and". The "and" does not look quite right in non-english texts)? |
| 13th Mar 2013, 10:57 PM | #13 REPORT | |
 | Juke Jules SUBS Tell me he's lazy, tell me he's slow Member since Jan 2011 4150 Points Moderator |
Quote:
Will it, by the way, be acceptable to write the artists as: Paul Godwin, Viggo Larsen (i.e. using "," instead of "and". The "and" does not look quite right in non-english texts)?
To meet neslo4's reasonable request that records with a named vocalist should appear in the vocalist's discography, we might need some changes to the database Would Orbiting Cat like to consider this? |
| 28th Mar 2013, 6:19 AM | #14 REPORT | |
| LaurenceD SUBS Member since Aug 2011 7819 Points Moderator | I tidied up the [artist=tommy-dorsey]Tommy Dorsey[/artist] listings, moving the "and his Orchestra" credits to the notes, and linking the related items. Hopefully this is more in line with our thinking. The one item that I kept separate was [artist=the-tommy-dorsey-orchestra]The Tommy Dorsey Orchestra[/artist], c.1958, since Tommy himself was no longer around by then. I added 'See also' links for that listing. Seems to me that the Glenn Miller Orchestra had releases credited in a similar fashion when Tex Beneke first took over. |
| 1st Apr 2013, 2:58 PM | #15 REPORT | |
| Dr Doom SUBS I wanna eat an artichoke once in a while Member since Feb 2008 25440 Points Administrator |
LaurenceD wrote:
I tidied up the [artist=tommy-dorsey]Tommy Dorsey[/artist] listings, moving the "and his Orchestra" credits to the notes, and linking the related items. Hopefully this is more in line with our thinking.
The one item that I kept separate was [artist=the-tommy-dorsey-orchestra]The Tommy Dorsey Orchestra[/artist], c.1958, since Tommy himself was no longer around by then. I added 'See also' links for that listing. Seems to me that the Glenn Miller Orchestra had releases credited in a similar fashion when Tex Beneke first took over. Yes that sounds sensible too. |
| 3rd Jun 2013, 9:32 PM | #16 REPORT | |
 | Graham7 Member since Apr 2012 6406 Points Moderator | Jack Hylton And His Orchestra have 15 records, Jack Hylton has 6 - all seem to credit his orchestra. I've been adding mine as just Jack Hylton - except the one I put as Jack Hylton's Kit Cat Band. Anyone able to sort these out, and link if neccesary? Also Marek Weber (And His Orchestra) could do with looking at. |
| 4th Jun 2013, 3:52 AM | #17 REPORT | |
| LaurenceD SUBS Member since Aug 2011 7819 Points Moderator | I added links for the [artist=jack-hylton]Jack Hylton[/artist] variants. |
| 19th Jun 2013, 8:46 PM | #18 REPORT | |
| TheJudge In-house specialist in drive-by moddings. Member since Dec 2012 3718 Points Moderator | Coming very late to this discussion (it's because I'm adding the 78s from D_T_F's stash at the moment), and I have to say that I have 'issues' with it. To me, I would agree that, e.g. "Fred Fargle with orchestra" should go under just "Fred Fargle", because it's an unspecified orchestra - the equivalent of a studio pick-up group. However, "Fred Fargle And His Orchestra" is very specific; it's His orchestra rather than anyone's or no-one's. In this as in anything else, there will be inconsistencies, but we can link where necessary. Here's my mea culpa at the end of this: the other night I reverted most of the Harry James ones mentioned in Dr.D's opening post to Harry James And His Orchestra in line with that - for want of a better word - reasoning. Feel free to change them back if you think it matters; I'll be a bit more circumspect about it in future. |
| 20th Jun 2013, 12:03 AM | #19 REPORT | |
| Juke Jules SUBS Tell me he's lazy, tell me he's slow Member since Jan 2011 4150 Points Moderator | A nice distinction, TheJudge, as long as the record companies observed it the same In the end, a lot of decisions will be made on personal judgement |
| 21st Jun 2013, 1:14 PM | #20 REPORT | |
| lorangrecords SUBS ● (Ulf) Member since Jan 2013 5847 Points Moderator | There are some hundred "and his Orchestra" that are shortened to just the band leader. That's how I recieved the message in the beginning of the 78s world. Are we now going to change them to get them in one line, or what to do? How do we know what's on the label when there's no scans? I'm cunfused I must say. |
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