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| Country of Sale vs. Country of Issue with HMV export issues |
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| 1st Nov 2017, 4:10 AM | #1 REPORT | |
 | xiphophilos Member since Dec 2013 3351 Points Moderator | I'm sorry to open up again what may have been discussed numerous times before. Here's the case: The database currently lists about two dozen records under the label "His Master's Voice" [Germany] even though "His Master's Voice" records were, for contractual reasons, never sold in Germany. Instead, they appeared there under the labels "Electrola" or "Die Stimme Seines Herrn". I personally would categorize these as UK export issues, not as German issues. Even though the German series with the prefixes E.G. (10 inch), E.H. (12 inch) and E.W. (10 inch) usually feature German performers and German label text, they were actually mainly sold in Britain, Holland, and Scandinavia, as shown by the nationality of the users of this database who own them, and they couldn't legally be sold in Germany itself. The large number of British owners of these export issues (around 50% of the E.G., E.H., and E.W. in this database, some listed under Germany, others under UK) seems to be explained by the 1951-1952 HMV catalog that includes, apparently for the first time, also records from the Overseas Main Catalogue and Supplement. This catalogue tells British dealers that all these Overseas or export issues are available for order from the British HMV factory in Hayes as well. I know we have the "country of sale rule". But does it really make sense with these UK export issues? I don't understand why, for example, a Dutch record store sticker on a HMV produced in England should make this record a Dutch issue (like this Comedian Harmonists record), whereas a Danish sticker on another copy of the same record would make it a Danish issue. Why can't they all be UK export issues? In any case, even under the 'country of sale" rule, the German-language HMV export issues would need to be listed as "Europe" rather than Germany since they were never sold in Germany itself. Any comments? Edited by xiphophilos on 1st Nov 2017, 7:03 AM |
| 1st Nov 2017, 6:02 AM | #2 REPORT | |
 | PhilMH Member since Jan 2012 1055 Points | Not necessarily just in Europe - I understand that the E.M.I. companies here in Australia frequently listed UK imports in their catalogues (some of those catalogues turn up on ebay, abebooks, etc. from time to time, but I don't have any myself). |
| 1st Nov 2017, 6:06 AM | #3 REPORT | |
| xiphophilos Member since Dec 2013 3351 Points Moderator | That would explain why one of the German series HMVs (HMV E.G. 6780) is owned by one of our Australian members. |
| 1st Nov 2017, 7:59 AM | #4 REPORT | |
 | TopPopper Member since Mar 2013 2612 Points | As I understand, a UK export record is merely a designation for collectors. It describes a record unexpectedly manufactured in the UK to serve another country's market. It's not really important - for example some UK Beatles LPs were pressed in France - they are not listed as French export - they are listed as UK. Place of sale remains the over-arching factor. |
| 1st Nov 2017, 3:03 PM | #5 REPORT | |
| xiphophilos Member since Dec 2013 3351 Points Moderator | Thanks for the comment. I agree that point of sale should be the overarching factor where it can be shown that a record was, say, produced by Beka in Germany, but sold exclusively in Britain and thus having English label text, etc. But what about the specific case I am asking about? Do we continue to assign HMV's German-language series, which was sold everywhere but in Germany, to Germany, or do we reassign them to Europe, or, since they were sold in Australia too, to International, or, since 50% of the production, especially Classical records, seem to have been sold in Britain anyway, wouldn't it be more useful to assign them to the UK as an Export Record (otherwise, why have the designation "Export Record" in the first place)? |
| 1st Nov 2017, 6:08 PM | #6 REPORT | |
 | scrough No picture 'cos I'm not into 45rpm :( Member since Jan 2013 3424 Points Moderator | In the specific case of these UK pressed German language records post WW1 assigned to Germany, they must be in the wrong place. But is it better to assign them to UK as 'exports', or to have European, or even International classifications? Originally all Gramophone Company (ie HMV and earlier label) releases were 'International', but with the exception of the Americas, where Victor had all record distribution rights. The catalogue numbers indicated the language of the recording, so Caruso records have many different numerical language prefixes. We currently list these as 'countries' rather than languages. But as the markets expanded, different regions adopted their own catalogue number system for items of more limited local interest. The final result, especially after double sided records became the norm, was that each region had sets of letter prefixes, some prefixes being more local, and others representing 'International' material. I've just added two pages to this 1943 specialist Jazz catalogue which illustrate this. I've not discovered any earlier UK listings of the 'International' HMV catalogue contents before the 1940s, although a section of the UK B series (B4500-4999) was allocated as International export from 1919 and never listed in UK catalogues, and the UK DA/DB series (from 1923) were allocated catalogue numbers by 'region'. It seems to me that 'export', International, or European classifications for all these records will only lead to a confusing hotch-potch of listings - which is what we see with the UK exports, even though I've only transferred some. Perhaps we need a 'language' qualifier in Export, International or European listings, which might help to separate these listings into targeted audiences/countries? No easy answers here :( |
| 1st Nov 2017, 7:27 PM | #7 REPORT | |
| scrough No picture 'cos I'm not into 45rpm :( Member since Jan 2013 3424 Points Moderator |
PhilMH wrote:
Not necessarily just in Europe - I understand that the E.M.I. companies here in Australia frequently listed UK imports in their catalogues (some of those catalogues turn up on ebay, abebooks, etc. from time to time, but I don't have any myself).
Its an easy 'get-out' to allocate all these earlier records as being part of collections now in Australia, so not ever being sold there, when evidence indicates that many of them could probably have been imported. |
| 1st Nov 2017, 8:22 PM | #8 REPORT | |
| TopPopper Member since Mar 2013 2612 Points |
xiphophilos wrote:
The database currently lists about two dozen records under the label "His Master's Voice" [Germany] even though "His Master's Voice" records were, for contractual reasons, never sold in Germany ... they were actually mainly sold in Britain, Holland, and Scandinavia, as shown by the nationality of the users of this database who own them, and they couldn't legally be sold in Germany itself.
If they weren't sold in Germany, there's no case for listing them that way. You've identified three countries they were sold in - all in Europe - so I would say they should be listed as Europe. As this appears to apply to everything on the label, it should be changed to HMV [Europe]. People who don't know so much about them will naturally assume they are German releases - I would if I came across one. But if they aren't, they aren't. |
| 2nd Nov 2017, 10:41 AM | #9 REPORT | |
| keebrev Member since Aug 2016 464 Points | It's quite easy if there is a second country field. First country field is the country of manufacture, the second where it's sold or exported to. That's easily said, but a terrible job to do so (like to me, who has nothing with programming). So Admins, there's a lot of work to be done.... On the other hand, if it's done, it's the last time this question will be asked! Edited by moderator on 11th Jun 2018, 9:11 PM |
| 2nd Nov 2017, 11:47 AM | #10 REPORT | |
| lorangrecords SUBS (Ulf) Member since Jan 2013 5802 Points Moderator | In many early cases, the records were pressed at an English plant, and then send to the market, which released and sold them. Just because the pressingplant was situated in England, don't make the records "Export Issues". Edited by moderator on 2nd Nov 2017, 11:48 AM |
| 2nd Nov 2017, 12:30 PM | #11 REPORT | |
 | KeithS SUBS Member since Dec 2009 12492 Points Moderator | I suppose as Europe had been bombed to buggery, many pressing plants either didnt exist or the shortage of manpower would have affected a whole industry |
| 2nd Nov 2017, 1:46 PM | #12 REPORT | |
| ppint. Member since Aug 2012 6391 Points | the uk majors, emi (which included hmv), decca (which included london), and pye, all produced editions of records intended primarily or only for export to unspecified countries where they did not operate wholly- or partially-owned subsidiaries°, or were unable to convince the local managers of companies who licenced use of their labels' names, or any of their usual friendly local music corpses into licencing the rights, in countries where they held the recordings' rights. - philips [uk] could have done so, and may have, but the usual major manufacturing centre for the philips group would've been eindhoven, iirc - off the cuff, yr hmbl srppnt. can only think of philips [uk] export editions they manufactured for island records, for sale in scandawegia. oh. yes. i've recalled a couple of philips [uk] export copies. but they must've been relatively infrequent - or else their distribution restrictions pretty closely observed. - this was not a phantasmal phenomenon invented in the 21st century ce for the convenience of 45catters & lpcatters; nor for record collectors, neither; it was a real-world occurrence that 45cat+lpcat should follow in recording correctly, or else be lying to itself, its members and casual browsers of the sites - and be liable to confuse any and everyone looking at items on these sites that were export editions, but whose existence as such 45cat+lpcat no longer recognises. - in the absence of a subsidiary or additional cataloguing field dropping down, in which to check off the market territories in which export copies (- and maybe also yeurppean copies, and/or internecine strife copies -) have been bought - it might be a good idea to suggest in "the guidelines" that such countries of purchase be listed initially in "comments" upon the (single, ep, lp, double lp, bootleg) item in question, with a view to later transferring the information into the item's notes: section. ° - or in some cases did, but where the market size was not thought sufficient to justify its own, specific market, edition |
| 8th May 2018, 2:17 PM | #13 REPORT | |
| ChristopherRobin Member since May 2017 418 Points | All the H.M.V. Germany are British Export issue, so should be amended. Also H.M.V. Australia must have started producing their own discs earlier than is thought here, as I have one from 1919. I have the UK pressing as well. The label is definitely pre-1925. Edited by moderator on 11th Jun 2018, 9:12 PM |
| 9th May 2018, 12:15 PM | #14 REPORT | |
| JLC135 Member since Aug 2014 2718 Points Moderator |
ChristopherRobin wrote:
Also H.M.V. Australia must have started producing their own discs earlier than is thought here, as I have one from 1919. I have the UK pressing aswell. The label is definitely pre- 1925.
They didn't have a factory in Australia until 1925, so I don't know how that could be possible. I'd certainly like to see it, though. What do you define as a pre 1925 label? [Resolved: early Aus HMV "quadrant" label - record circa late 1925-early 1926] Edited by JLC135 on 15th May 2018, 9:32 AM |
| 15th Mar 2024, 12:07 AM | #15 REPORT | |
| sheepdip1234 SUBS Member since Feb 2013 2279 Points | An "export" question. I have an English/British 1951 HMV 78 which is already on 45worlds. The difference on mine is the sticker on Side 2 witch states "Made in England for RCA Victor Company Ltd". Would this be classed as an export copy? Thanks. |
| 15th Mar 2024, 12:33 AM | #16 REPORT | |
 | Redpunk SUBS ● Crates Are For Digging Member since Aug 2012 25315 Points Moderator | It's copy that has been exported but records even now are exported on ad-hoc basis around the world. But I would say it does not warrant a stand alone entry as it's just a standard UK release with a sticker. You could add an image to the existing UK issue as a talking point. |
| 15th Mar 2024, 5:53 AM | #17 REPORT | |
| PhilMH Member since Jan 2012 1055 Points |
sheepdip1234 wrote:
An "export" question. I have an English/British 1951 HMV 78 which is already on 45worlds. The difference on mine is the sticker on Side 2 witch states "Made in England for RCA Victor Company Ltd". Would this be classed as an export copy? Thanks.
I would be inclined to list that as a legitimate Canadian issue, as it sounds like it was imported by RCA Victor Company Ltd. and quite likely listed in their local catalogue. By the same token, I have somewhere (can't find it right at the moment) a US Capitol catalogue from 1977 or 1978 which lists some UK HMV Greensleeves imports which were stickered with Odeon logos for US release, because Capitol didn't have the rights to the HMV trademark. Discogs would most likely list those under the UK issues, arguing that they are not unique pressings, but we don't have to follow what they do - the stickers plus the US catalogue listing is enough to make those US releases as far as I'm concerned. |
| 15th Mar 2024, 8:41 AM | #18 REPORT | |
| KeithS SUBS Member since Dec 2009 12492 Points Moderator | Just looking through a 1947 Odeon-Parlophone catalogue from Sweden 1949 and the few Parlophone records listed seem to be imports from the UK ..hence their NCB markings Looking at HMV Sweden...historically they had their discs manufactured in England..even Swedish artists...and imported. The early war years must have made this impossible and then Swedish produced HMV began to turn up..catalogues Swedifying the name to "Hus Böndens Röst" Edited by moderator on 15th Mar 2024, 9:01 AM |
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