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Billy Cotton "What Do We Care"   


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  15th Jun 2024, 8:16 AM#1  REPORT  
Mike Wilson1

Musicologist
Member since Dec 2019
26 Points
Can anyone tell me who is the female vocalist on this track ?


  15th Jun 2024, 12:09 PM#2  REPORT  
danceband91

Member since Nov 2020
118 Points
Funnily enough it's Dolly Elsie (according to Rust & Forbes). I do have a spreadsheet that I've put together that includes all the vocalists, accompaniments etc. for the Missing Charts records. It's still in draft form, so there might be a few errors here and there, but I could send it to you if you think it would be helpful.


  15th Jun 2024, 12:20 PM#3  REPORT  
Mike Wilson1

Musicologist
Member since Dec 2019
26 Points
Yes Indeed, that would be very helpful as I'm having to go through some 1800 recordings to ensure that I've got the vocalists right............
danceband91 wrote:
Funnily enough it's Dolly Elsie (according to Rust & Forbes). I do have a spreadsheet that I've put together that includes all the vocalists, accompaniments etc. for the Missing Charts records. It's still in draft form, so there might be a few errors here and there, but I could send it to you if you think it would be helpful.



  15th Jun 2024, 12:23 PM#4  REPORT  
Mike Wilson1

Musicologist
Member since Dec 2019
26 Points
Just waiting for 5 recordings from Kings College then I have every recording from The Missing Charts Book 1940-1949........
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
Yes Indeed, that would be very helpful as I'm having to go through some 1800 recordings to ensure that I've got the vocalists right............
danceband91 wrote:
Funnily enough it's Dolly Elsie (according to Rust & Forbes). I do have a spreadsheet that I've put together that includes all the vocalists, accompaniments etc. for the Missing Charts records. It's still in draft form, so there might be a few errors here and there, but I could send it to you if you think it would be helpful.



  15th Jun 2024, 1:22 PM#5  REPORT  
danceband91

Member since Nov 2020
118 Points
I've sent the spreadsheet over to you. There will be a few differences in the records listed compared to the Missing Charts book, as I've been correcting the errors as I go along. For instance, the book credits Harry Roy's "Leicester Square Rag" on Decca F-9145 as re-entering the charts in November 1949, but it should actually be the new version he recorded on Parlophone F-2387 (with added vocal), which was released that month.

Tremendous news to hear you've finally completed 1940-49 - a task I'm not sure many people would have thought possible! I'll keep an eye out for the remaining 50s records on my travels.


  15th Jun 2024, 6:56 PM#6  REPORT  
mister_tmg

Also on 78rpm
Member since Apr 2012
1117 Points
danceband91 wrote:
For instance, the book credits Harry Roy's "Leicester Square Rag" on Decca F-9145 as re-entering the charts in November 1949, but it should actually be the new version he recorded on Parlophone F-2387 (with added vocal), which was released that month.

How do you know?


  15th Jun 2024, 9:08 PM#7  REPORT  
Pridesale

Member since Mar 2013
789 Points
mister_tmg wrote:
danceband91 wrote:
For instance, the book credits Harry Roy's "Leicester Square Rag" on Decca F-9145 as re-entering the charts in November 1949, but it should actually be the new version he recorded on Parlophone F-2387 (with added vocal), which was released that month.

How do you know?
Indeed a general query , did "re-entries" generally occur in this era ( somewhat assuming 20 new releases would always outsell a older disc that had already sold enough to chart)


  15th Jun 2024, 10:54 PM#8  REPORT  
danceband91

Member since Nov 2020
118 Points
mister_tmg wrote:
danceband91 wrote:
For instance, the book credits Harry Roy's "Leicester Square Rag" on Decca F-9145 as re-entering the charts in November 1949, but it should actually be the new version he recorded on Parlophone F-2387 (with added vocal), which was released that month.
How do you know?
I suppose I don't know for certain, but it seems like a fairly safe assumption. There are a few similar cases where the book quotes a catalogue number corresponding to an earlier release by the same artist, rather than the record that had been just issued. I get the general impression that catalogue numbers were not part of the original data (or at least hadn't always been noted down), and instead were added in at a later stage.
Pridesale wrote:
Indeed a general query , did "re-entries" generally occur in this era ( somewhat assuming 20 new releases would always outsell a older disc that had already sold enough to chart)
You're right in thinking that re-entries were fairly uncommon. There were only around 50 or so records (out of 2326) that meaningfully re-entered the charts from 1940-52 (as opposed to just dropping out for a week). The reason for the re-entry is usually due to a new recording being released by another artist causing the song to regain popularity. This often happened in the early to mid forties, since it would often take three or four months for recordings by US artists to be released in the UK.

The strangest re-entry I've found is that of Nat Gonella's recording of "Juanita" on Columbia FB-2503. This initially charted for two weeks in Nov-40, but re-entered for a month in Mar-43. The reason for this appeared to be a new recording by Monte Rey on Columbia FB-2902 which charted in Mar-43, but it turns out that this version of "Juanita" is an entirely different song! Either it's a complete co-incidence or someone's got confused somewhere!


  16th Jun 2024, 9:48 AM#9  REPORT  
Mike Wilson1

Musicologist
Member since Dec 2019
26 Points
Going through the book as I have, I have found several cases of Re- entries
being classed as New Entries (
Judy Garland being the one that threw me the most)
danceband91 wrote:
mister_tmg wrote:
danceband91 wrote:
For instance, the book credits Harry Roy's "Leicester Square Rag" on Decca F-9145 as re-entering the charts in November 1949, but it should actually be the new version he recorded on Parlophone F-2387 (with added vocal), which was released that month.
How do you know?
I suppose I don't know for certain, but it seems like a fairly safe assumption. There are a few similar cases where the book quotes a catalogue number corresponding to an earlier release by the same artist, rather than the record that had been just issued. I get the general impression that catalogue numbers were not part of the original data (or at least hadn't always been noted down), and instead were added in at a later stage.
Pridesale wrote:
Indeed a general query , did "re-entries" generally occur in this era ( somewhat assuming 20 new releases would always outsell a older disc that had already sold enough to chart)
You're right in thinking that re-entries were fairly uncommon. There were only around 50 or so records (out of 2326) that meaningfully re-entered the charts from 1940-52 (as opposed to just dropping out for a week). The reason for the re-entry is usually due to a new recording being released by another artist causing the song to regain popularity. This often happened in the early to mid forties, since it would often take three or four months for recordings by US artists to be released in the UK.

The strangest re-entry I've found is that of Nat Gonella's recording of "Juanita" on Columbia FB-2503. This initially charted for two weeks in Nov-40, but re-entered for a month in Mar-43. The reason for this appeared to be a new recording by Monte Rey on Columbia FB-2902 which charted in Mar-43, but it turns out that this version of "Juanita" is an entirely different song! Either it's a complete co-incidence or someone's got confused somewhere!



  16th Jun 2024, 1:08 PM#10  REPORT  
Mike Wilson1

Musicologist
Member since Dec 2019
26 Points
Do I understand that you have photographed all the titles in The Missing Charts book ?........I have a couple of enquiries.......No. 378....."There I Go" -Jay Wilbur....I have the featured vocalist as Bebe Daniels, certainly a female singer as I listen to it.......Also No. 386...."Dolores"........My recording is definitely Monte Rey singing......No. 439.....I'm totally confused......I think it might be worthwhile to compere information seeing as I have calculated 1827 individual entries and you are at 1840 I believe.......Also is your definitive listing the title as printed on the record label or as sung by the artists....I would like to compare information as I am sure that many of my stats will need correction and I would like to be as accurate as is possible
danceband91 wrote:
mister_tmg wrote:
danceband91 wrote:
For instance, the book credits Harry Roy's "Leicester Square Rag" on Decca F-9145 as re-entering the charts in November 1949, but it should actually be the new version he recorded on Parlophone F-2387 (with added vocal), which was released that month.
How do you know?
I suppose I don't know for certain, but it seems like a fairly safe assumption. There are a few similar cases where the book quotes a catalogue number corresponding to an earlier release by the same artist, rather than the record that had been just issued. I get the general impression that catalogue numbers were not part of the original data (or at least hadn't always been noted down), and instead were added in at a later stage.
Pridesale wrote:
Indeed a general query , did "re-entries" generally occur in this era ( somewhat assuming 20 new releases would always outsell a older disc that had already sold enough to chart)
You're right in thinking that re-entries were fairly uncommon. There were only around 50 or so records (out of 2326) that meaningfully re-entered the charts from 1940-52 (as opposed to just dropping out for a week). The reason for the re-entry is usually due to a new recording being released by another artist causing the song to regain popularity. This often happened in the early to mid forties, since it would often take three or four months for recordings by US artists to be released in the UK.

The strangest re-entry I've found is that of Nat Gonella's recording of "Juanita" on Columbia FB-2503. This initially charted for two weeks in Nov-40, but re-entered for a month in Mar-43. The reason for this appeared to be a new recording by Monte Rey on Columbia FB-2902 which charted in Mar-43, but it turns out that this version of "Juanita" is an entirely different song! Either it's a complete co-incidence or someone's got confused somewhere!


Edited by Mike Wilson1 on 16th Jun 2024, 1:40 PM

  16th Jun 2024, 1:41 PM#11  REPORT  
Mike Wilson1

Musicologist
Member since Dec 2019
26 Points
cc message sent


  16th Jun 2024, 1:43 PM#12  REPORT  
Mike Wilson1

Musicologist
Member since Dec 2019
26 Points
Just sent this to danceband91.........I have a couple of enquiries.......No. 378....."There I Go" -Jay Wilbur....I have the featured vocalist as Bebe Daniels, certainly a female singer as I listen to it.......Also No. 386...."Dolores"........My recording is definitely Monte Rey singing......No. 439.....I'm totally confused......I think it might be worthwhile to compere information seeing as I have calculated 1827 individual entries and you are at 1840 I believe.......Also is your definitive listing the title as printed on the record label or as sung by the artists....I would like to compare information as I am sure that many of my stats will need correction and I would like to be as accurate as is possible
mister_tmg wrote:
danceband91 wrote:
For instance, the book credits Harry Roy's "Leicester Square Rag" on Decca F-9145 as re-entering the charts in November 1949, but it should actually be the new version he recorded on Parlophone F-2387 (with added vocal), which was released that month.

How do you know?



  16th Jun 2024, 2:38 PM#13  REPORT  
danceband91

Member since Nov 2020
118 Points
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
Do I understand that you have photographed all the titles in The Missing Charts book ?........I have a couple of enquiries.......No. 378....."There I Go" -Jay Wilbur....I have the featured vocalist as Bebe Daniels, certainly a female singer as I listen to it.......Also No. 386...."Dolores"........My recording is definitely Monte Rey singing......No. 439.....I'm totally confused......I think it might be worthwhile to compere information seeing as I have calculated 1827 individual entries and you are at 1840 I believe.......Also is your definitive listing the title as printed on the record label or as sung by the artists....I would like to compare information as I am sure that many of my stats will need correction and I would like to be as accurate as is possible
I have photographs of most (probably about 90%), but not all. For records that I do have a photo for, the spreadsheet information comes directly from the record label. For the others I've used a combination of discographies and information from the internet, which may not be totally accurate. I'm currently going through the listing, and trying to make sure the information comes from a reputable source.

No. 378 "There I Go". It looks like Bebe Daniels did record a solo version of this with Jay Wilbur's band (released on Decca F-7878). This is different from the dance band recording on Rex 9987, however, which is the record that the book credits as charting. Discographies list this as having a vocal by Sam Browne (although I don't have a picture to confirm that). I can't find a recording of it anywhere online, or for sale, so I'm afraid it might be one to add back to your list...

No. 386 "Dolores". I suspect the recording you have is of Geraldo's Gaucho Tango Orchestra (see here), which does have a vocal by Monte Rey. I can't find a UK release for it, but it's probably mid-1930s. The 1941 version is by Geraldo's Savoy Hotel Orchestra and has a vocal by Jack Cooper. I can't find a recording online, but the record is for sale on ebay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/252569595114

Which song are you referring to as No.439? If you have a list of records that you can send me, I'd be happy to go through and try and work out where we differ. As I mentioned, I have added in some records that are stated in the book as re-entries, but for which I found a more recent release. Also happy to listen to any recordings you might be unsure about.


  16th Jun 2024, 2:39 PM#14  REPORT  
mister_tmg

Also on 78rpm
Member since Apr 2012
1117 Points
Peter’s spreadsheet will answer some of these questions - and others will be in British Dance Bands on Record, a link to which has been posted on this forum.


  16th Jun 2024, 3:12 PM#15  REPORT  
Mike Wilson1

Musicologist
Member since Dec 2019
26 Points
Hi Peter.....Thanks for the reply.......I have bought the record that was on Ebay as I thought that I had got the wrong recording.......I am going through your spreadsheet now and I know it is only a draft copy but I'm checking it against my info in blocks of 20 at a time so as I come across a query I'll forward it to you
danceband91 wrote:
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
Do I understand that you have photographed all the titles in The Missing Charts book ?........I have a couple of enquiries.......No. 378....."There I Go" -Jay Wilbur....I have the featured vocalist as Bebe Daniels, certainly a female singer as I listen to it.......Also No. 386...."Dolores"........My recording is definitely Monte Rey singing......No. 439.....I'm totally confused......I think it might be worthwhile to compere information seeing as I have calculated 1827 individual entries and you are at 1840 I believe.......Also is your definitive listing the title as printed on the record label or as sung by the artists....I would like to compare information as I am sure that many of my stats will need correction and I would like to be as accurate as is possible
I have photographs of most (probably about 90%), but not all. For records that I do have a photo for, the spreadsheet information comes directly from the record label. For the others I've used a combination of discographies and information from the internet, which may not be totally accurate. I'm currently going through the listing, and trying to make sure the information comes from a reputable source.

No. 378 "There I Go". It looks like Bebe Daniels did record a solo version of this with Jay Wilbur's band (released on Decca F-7878). This is different from the dance band recording on Rex 9987, however, which is the record that the book credits as charting. Discographies list this as having a vocal by Sam Browne (although I don't have a picture to confirm that). I can't find a recording of it anywhere online, or for sale, so I'm afraid it might be one to add back to your list...

No. 386 "Dolores". I suspect the recording you have is of Geraldo's Gaucho Tango Orchestra (see here), which does have a vocal by Monte Rey. I can't find a UK release for it, but it's probably mid-1930s. The 1941 version is by Geraldo's Savoy Hotel Orchestra and has a vocal by Jack Cooper. I can't find a recording online, but the record is for sale on ebay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/252569595114

Which song are you referring to as No.439? If you have a list of records that you can send me, I'd be happy to go through and try and work out where we differ. As I mentioned, I have added in some records that are stated in the book as re-entries, but for which I found a more recent release. Also happy to listen to any recordings you might be unsure about.



  16th Jun 2024, 4:20 PM#16  REPORT  
Mike Wilson1

Musicologist
Member since Dec 2019
26 Points
I expect you already know but Nos. 41 & 90 are slightly the wrong titles
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
Hi Peter.....Thanks for the reply.......I have bought the record that was on Ebay as I thought that I had got the wrong recording.......I am going through your spreadsheet now and I know it is only a draft copy but I'm checking it against my info in blocks of 20 at a time so as I come across a query I'll forward it to you
danceband91 wrote:
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
Do I understand that you have photographed all the titles in The Missing Charts book ?........I have a couple of enquiries.......No. 378....."There I Go" -Jay Wilbur....I have the featured vocalist as Bebe Daniels, certainly a female singer as I listen to it.......Also No. 386...."Dolores"........My recording is definitely Monte Rey singing......No. 439.....I'm totally confused......I think it might be worthwhile to compere information seeing as I have calculated 1827 individual entries and you are at 1840 I believe.......Also is your definitive listing the title as printed on the record label or as sung by the artists....I would like to compare information as I am sure that many of my stats will need correction and I would like to be as accurate as is possible
I have photographs of most (probably about 90%), but not all. For records that I do have a photo for, the spreadsheet information comes directly from the record label. For the others I've used a combination of discographies and information from the internet, which may not be totally accurate. I'm currently going through the listing, and trying to make sure the information comes from a reputable source.

No. 378 "There I Go". It looks like Bebe Daniels did record a solo version of this with Jay Wilbur's band (released on Decca F-7878). This is different from the dance band recording on Rex 9987, however, which is the record that the book credits as charting. Discographies list this as having a vocal by Sam Browne (although I don't have a picture to confirm that). I can't find a recording of it anywhere online, or for sale, so I'm afraid it might be one to add back to your list...

No. 386 "Dolores". I suspect the recording you have is of Geraldo's Gaucho Tango Orchestra (see here), which does have a vocal by Monte Rey. I can't find a UK release for it, but it's probably mid-1930s. The 1941 version is by Geraldo's Savoy Hotel Orchestra and has a vocal by Jack Cooper. I can't find a recording online, but the record is for sale on ebay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/252569595114

Which song are you referring to as No.439? If you have a list of records that you can send me, I'd be happy to go through and try and work out where we differ. As I mentioned, I have added in some records that are stated in the book as re-entries, but for which I found a more recent release. Also happy to listen to any recordings you might be unsure about.



  16th Jun 2024, 4:49 PM#17  REPORT  
danceband91

Member since Nov 2020
118 Points
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
I expect you already know but Nos. 41 & 90 are slightly the wrong titles
I hadn't actually noticed that the title of No. 90 is wrong in the book - another error to add to the list! Just to clarify if it's not already clear, the info in column D corresponds to the artists and titles exactly as they're presented in the book, while columns E-J contain info taken from record photos / discographies. In addition, column C (the cat no) is not taken directly from the book, so incorporates corrections I've made - there should be a note somewhere in columns V-Y if the cat no differs from that given in the book.


  16th Jun 2024, 5:12 PM#18  REPORT  
Mike Wilson1

Musicologist
Member since Dec 2019
26 Points
I started at Number 1 and I have got to 112 now with us in agreement, although the title of 112 is slightly incorrect......Your spreadsheet is really good and helps me no end
danceband91 wrote:
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
I expect you already know but Nos. 41 & 90 are slightly the wrong titles
I hadn't actually noticed that the title of No. 90 is wrong in the book - another error to add to the list! Just to clarify if it's not already clear, the info in column D corresponds to the artists and titles exactly as they're presented in the book, while columns E-J contain info taken from record photos / discographies. In addition, column C (the cat no) is not taken directly from the book, so incorporates corrections I've made - there should be a note somewhere in columns V-Y if the cat no differs from that given in the book.



  17th Jun 2024, 1:23 PM#19  REPORT  
Mike Wilson1

Musicologist
Member since Dec 2019
26 Points
I need a check on Number 275....Joe Loss "Only Forever" HMV BD 5647......The label says " with vocal chorus" and you have it on your spread sheet as vocalist Paula Green but when I play it I get Sam Browne(Male)........
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
I started at Number 1 and I have got to 112 now with us in agreement, although the title of 112 is slightly incorrect......Your spreadsheet is really good and helps me no end
danceband91 wrote:
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
I expect you already know but Nos. 41 & 90 are slightly the wrong titles
I hadn't actually noticed that the title of No. 90 is wrong in the book - another error to add to the list! Just to clarify if it's not already clear, the info in column D corresponds to the artists and titles exactly as they're presented in the book, while columns E-J contain info taken from record photos / discographies. In addition, column C (the cat no) is not taken directly from the book, so incorporates corrections I've made - there should be a note somewhere in columns V-Y if the cat no differs from that given in the book.



  17th Jun 2024, 2:41 PM#20  REPORT  
danceband91

Member since Nov 2020
118 Points
Mike Wilson1 wrote:
I need a check on Number 275....Joe Loss "Only Forever" HMV BD 5647......The label says " with vocal chorus" and you have it on your spread sheet as vocalist Paula Green but when I play it I get Sam Browne(Male)........

After a bit of detective work, I suspect the version you have is not by Joe Loss, but actually by The Organ, The Dance Band & Me! There seems to have been a digital album release which has included a track wrongly credited to Joe Loss with Sam Browne [see this youtube video). The organ and piano-heavy accompaniment suggested to me it was a Billy Thorburn band and indeed it is the same track that's elsewhere credited to The Organ, The Dance Band & Me (see e.g. this youtube video).

Unfortunately digital-only releases are often quite sloppy when it comes to providing accurate information (although to be fair I've come across many CDs with mis-attributed titles and vocalists etc.). Here they got both the band and the vocalist wrong - it's not even Sam Browne singing, it's Alan Kane!

I've extracted an mp3 with the Joe Loss / Paula Green version from one of Alan Dell's old Dance Band Days radio programmes. I'll send if over to you.


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