The first song on the first side of the first Beatles album is, "I Saw Her Standing There" where Paul sings the word, "saw" a number of times.
On the second album is, "`Til There Was You" where, every time he sings that word, it comes out, "sar". Why?
In studying the British dialect, I am baffled by the rendition of the letter "r". Typically, I hear that word "saw" pronounced "soar". Often the letter is pronounced in words ending with the letter "a" -- tacking on a non-existent "r" phonic. (ie, "mommer" for mama,, like in the Slade song "Did Your Mama Ever Tell Ya") And yet words that end in the letter "r" that letter is typically not pronounced at all. (ie, well, it's not spoken in the song, but the Led Zep song title, "D'yer Mak'er"...jer-make'a) [sorry for the intentional odd music examples]
And so, whenever I attempt speaking with a British accent, I first pick a region, then turn usage of the "r" letter upside down.
In fairness, some of that "r" business is prominent in the USA's northeast territories -- especially New York. Annoyingly, when attempting to pronounce the word "extraordinary" (which is typically spoken as "ex'trah'dinary")
Why so much trouble with the letter R?
* please, no flames...this is merely observationist. I live in the deep south and mock redneck-speak daily, much to the amusement of my redneck co-workers, friendly fire.
In studying the British dialect, I am baffled by the rendition of the letter "r". Typically, I hear that word "saw" pronounced "soar". Often the letter is pronounced in words ending with the letter "a" -- tacking on a non-existent "r" phonic. (ie, "mommer" for mama,, like in the Slade song "Did Your Mama Ever Tell Ya") And yet words that end in the letter "r" that letter is typically not pronounced at all. (ie, well, it's not spoken in the song, but the Led Zep song title, "D'yer Mak'er"...jer-make'a) [sorry for the intentional odd music examples]
And so, whenever I attempt speaking with a British accent, I first pick a region, then turn usage of the "r" letter upside down.
In fairness, some of that "r" business is prominent in the USA's northeast territories -- especially New York. Annoyingly, when attempting to pronounce the word "extraordinary" (which is typically spoken as "ex'trah'dinary")
Why so much trouble with the letter R?
* please, no flames...this is merely observationist. I live in the deep south and mock redneck-speak daily, much to the amusement of my redneck co-workers, friendly fire.
There's certain American dialects that add an R at the end of a word, too. "Pizzer" (instead of pizza), "Winder" (Instead of window). It's mostly those from the south that say it that way.
In the case of "extraordinary', most people pronounce it "extrordinary" but, actually, each pronunciation has a slightly different meaning. The above example means: odd, bizarre, amazing, etc.. But, to say it, "extraordinary" means: to go the extra steps, to be something special, wonderful or, again, amazing.
All language is in a constant state of change..some of the things I've noticed is the letter "T"seems to have disappeared from the alphabet..but thats probably for the be....er
And lots of people "Fink" instead of think
Santa Claus comes down the "chimley"
...and in the US .."I don't know, I'll ax him"
All language is in a constant state of change..some of the things I've noticed is the letter "T"seems to have disappeared from the alphabet..but thats probably for the be....er
And lots of people "Fink" instead of think
Santa Claus comes down the "chimley"
...and in the US .."I don't know, I'll ax him"
Apparently, there's only one or two dialects that don''t use the T very often, if at all, except where they don't need to like, IN the word, "often". I've always been taught that the T is silent but, suddenly, EVERYONE pronounces the T!!
I started wondering a few weeks ago why some Brits will say, "wiff" or "wiv" instead of 'with", and the same goes for other (oops, over) TH words.
I've also heard, "chimbley".
It's most blacks over here that use "axe" instead of "ask". They'll even say, "Can I axe you a quextion?" I don''t know iif it's intentional but, they seem to get the pronunciation of certain letter combos reversed. Like, my singer would sometimes talk about King Crinsome. Other than that, I never noticed him using other black-ish lingo unless he, in humourous affectation, was imitating black dialect, like, he'd say, "I'm gonna smack you upside yo haid!"
And there are some people who, for some reason, pronounce an "ST" as if it's spelled, "SHT". "It went shtraight out into the shtreet!'"
Then, there''s people that add syllables to words. I used to work as a cashier in a 7-11 and there was this one older guy that'd come in and buy Omni cigarettes and he would pronounce it, "Omini". Or, when I worked at the Science Center and someone wanted a ticket for the Omnimax theatre, they might say, "Ominimax". This extra syllable seems to always come in words that contain an M in the middle, like, "Chimeny".
There's certain American dialects that add an R at the end of a word, too. "Pizzer" (instead of pizza), "Winder" (Instead of window). It's mostly those from the south that say it that way.
In the case of "extraordinary', most people pronounce it "extrordinary" but, actually, each pronunciation has a slightly different meaning. The above example means: odd, bizarre, amazing, etc.. But, to say it, "extraordinary" means: to go the extra steps, to be something special, wonderful or, again, amazing.
In the South I live in (Carolinas), I've never heard "pizzer", but I remember hearing "winder" like when I was a kid, but even then, it was rare, mostly by folks whose roots were in the mountains.
Regarding the "axe" / ask used by blacks, I've heard that all my life. Listen to "The Young Folks" by the Jackson 5 (from the "ABC" album, + b-side of the "ABC" 45) and even Michael sings the line, "We "axe" you why..." in the second verse.
I used to have a good memory but now I can't re Member since May 2011 5031 Points Moderator
The original question was about "I saw here standing there" I think. It should be understood that Liverpool accents vary enormously depending on the background of the person and who they've been talking to. If they were speaking to the very well spoken Brian Epstein or George Martin, they may well have spoken with a more "received pronunciation". They might also have made different decisions on different days.
Not related to the Beatles, but Christy Moore pronounced "Thames" with a Th because of the Irish propensity to say "Three" as "Tree" which he was trying to avoid... It should, of course be pronounced "Tems".
In studying the British dialect, I am baffled by the rendition of the letter "r". Typically, I hear that word "saw" pronounced "soar". Often the letter is pronounced in words ending with the letter "a" -- tacking on a non-existent "r" phonic. (ie, "mommer" for mama,, like in the Slade song "Did Your Mama Ever Tell Ya") And yet words that end in the letter "r" that letter is typically not pronounced at all. (ie, well, it's not spoken in the song, but the Led Zep song title, "D'yer Mak'er"...jer-make'a) [sorry for the intentional odd music examples]
The one thing that annoys me about the English spoken on TV by presenters and the like quite often bridge two words with an 'r' The first word ends in a vowel and the next word also begins with a vowel, for example, if somebody said "The area in and around the town" would have an 'r' tagged onto the word "area" and sound like "The area (r) in and around the town". I think it's just a lazy way to say it without too much pronunciation. It's quite comprehensively explained in the attached video from You Tube
Reading this reminds me of my late mother, who was originally from Nelson Lancashire. She came to the U.S. in 1946 (and had me in '54). As a toddler I noticed her pronouncing "idea" with a trailing 'r' sound, and asked her where that 'r' came from. She got a bit touchy about it. She had been working hard for years to eliminate those speech mannerisms and sound "American" (in our case, the Southern California version).
There's certain American dialects that add an R at the end of a word, too. "Pizzer" (instead of pizza), "Winder" (Instead of window). It's mostly those from the south that say it that way.
In the case of "extraordinary', most people pronounce it "extrordinary" but, actually, each pronunciation has a slightly different meaning. The above example means: odd, bizarre, amazing, etc.. But, to say it, "extraordinary" means: to go the extra steps, to be something special, wonderful or, again, amazing.
In the South I live in (Carolinas), I've never heard "pizzer", but I remember hearing "winder" like when I was a kid, but even then, it was rare, mostly by folks whose roots were in the mountains.
Regarding the "axe" / ask used by blacks, I've heard that all my life. Listen to "The Young Folks" by the Jackson 5 (from the "ABC" album, + b-side of the "ABC" 45) and even Michael sings the line, "We "axe" you why..." in the second verse.
Yeah, now that you mention it, it IS probably more a mountain or mid-western thing like people from Arkansas.
I was never a fan of that flip side so, I really don't even recall how the song goes but, I can kinda see a little kid, as he was, back then (same age as me, 12 years old), using that word but, has he used it since he grew up? I mean, you'd kinda have to be living in a cave or under a rock NOT to have known, by that age, that it's not pronounced that way and should've corrected yourself, by then. I'm pretty sure, for example, that I used to say, "nucular" instead of, "nuclear" but, I eventually discovered that was wrong and have since corrected myself.
In studying the British dialect, I am baffled by the rendition of the letter "r". Typically, I hear that word "saw" pronounced "soar". Often the letter is pronounced in words ending with the letter "a" -- tacking on a non-existent "r" phonic. (ie, "mommer" for mama,, like in the Slade song "Did Your Mama Ever Tell Ya") And yet words that end in the letter "r" that letter is typically not pronounced at all. (ie, well, it's not spoken in the song, but the Led Zep song title, "D'yer Mak'er"...jer-make'a) [sorry for the intentional odd music examples]
The one thing that annoys me about the English spoken on TV by presenters and the like quite often bridge two words with an 'r' The first word ends in a vowel and the next word also begins with a vowel, for example, if somebody said "The area in and around the town" would have an 'r' tagged onto the word "area" and sound like "The area (r) in and around the town". I think it's just a lazy way to say it without too much pronunciation. It's quite comprehensively explained in the attached video from You Tube
I never have a problem saying things like "media event" without the r, even when I AM doing a British accent.
A number of things he mentioned in the video, we do over here, too.
a happy disposition is an omnious sign.... Member since Feb 2010 1704 Points Moderator
Just to be clear, there's no such thing as a British accent. English/Scot/Irish/Welsh are all very different, within England theres about half a dozen distinct accents alone. The lad in the video is clearly from the south/west and speaking in embryonic pirate ! (and very bad example for ESOL )
As an English southerner who lived in London for a long time but now resides in the frozen north I can guarantee you get a multitude of different accents wherever you go in England. Depending on who it I am talking too most people in the North think I am either a cockney barrel boy or super posh because I say words like BATH as BaRth but not like the northern BAFF .
However the golden rule for words in English is they do not sound like they are spelt. So IDEA really is I-DEAR & AREA is AIR-REE-ARE.
So many questions, so few answers Member since Nov 2010 876 Points Moderator
Regarding carryonsidney comment, I have lived in London all my life. Today I traveled from Uxbridge to central London by bus and underground train and very little English was spoken on my journey both ways, so how you can tell a London accent is anyone guess.
Chiswick, is pronounced Chis ick not Chis wick with a silent W.
Just to be clear, there's no such thing as a British accent. English/Scot/Irish/Welsh are all very different, within England theres about half a dozen distinct accents alone. The lad in the video is clearly from the south/west and speaking in embryonic pirate ! (and very bad example for ESOL )
As an English southerner who lived in London for a long time but now resides in the frozen north I can guarantee you get a multitude of different accents wherever you go in England. Depending on who it I am talking too most people in the North think I am either a cockney barrel boy or super posh because I say words like BATH as BaRth but not like the northern BAFF .
However the golden rule for words in English is they do not sound like they are spelt. So IDEA really is I-DEAR & AREA is AIR-REE-ARE.
What I don't get is that people who bridge two words with an 'r' the first one ending in a vowel and the next word begining with a vowel can quite easily say "I was in the area" without the R tagged at the end. It supports my hypothesis (the same as the guy in the video) that it's a lazy way of getting from one word to the next word. Simples
What I don't get is why some of yinz can't make the 'th" sound. I end up (unintentionally, mostly) watching a number of videos by a guy that calls himself "Thoughtytwo" but, when he pronounces it, it's, "Foughtytwo" and when he says words like, "other", it comes out, "over" (like, "lover" without the L). He seems a pretty intelligent guy and it just kinda puzzles me how it is that he, at his age, he still can''t pronounce the 'th" sound. is it really that hard to learn? I don't know how they teach English in schools over there but,, I suspect they're MUCH more strict than over here, even more than when I was ion school back in the `60's but, over here, there WERE a lot of young kids that would talk like that and, if the teacher heard someone speak that way, he/she would take the time to correct them and teach them how to make the "th" sound when speaking words that needed it. i remember there was some word that I always pronounced with an F (or, maybe, a ph) instead of a th and she taught me the way to make the th sound and I never had a pwobwem wiv it ever sins! Why doesn't that happen over there?
a happy disposition is an omnious sign.... Member since Feb 2010 1704 Points Moderator
There supposedly over 100 different languages regulary used in the big smoke?
Years ago I worked in a little workshop up Uxbridge for a while but the 2 hr commute from Crystal Palace was a bit off putting!
getalife wrote:
Regarding carryonsidney comment, I have lived in London all my life. Today I traveled from Uxbridge to central London by bus and underground train and very little English was spoken on my journey both ways, so how you can tell a London accent is anyone guess.
Chiswick, is pronounced Chis ick not Chis wick with a silent W.
So many questions, so few answers Member since Nov 2010 876 Points Moderator
carryonsidney wrote:
There supposedly over 100 different languages regulary used in the big smoke?
Years ago I worked in a little workshop up Uxbridge for a while but the 2 hr commute from Crystal Palace was a bit off putting!
getalife wrote:
Regarding carryonsidney comment, I have lived in London all my life. Today I traveled from Uxbridge to central London by bus and underground train and very little English was spoken on my journey both ways, so how you can tell a London accent is anyone guess.
Chiswick, is pronounced Chis ick not Chis wick with a silent W.
Not an easy commute south of the river north, what part of Uxbridge did you work, we may have crossed paths. Putney Vale home last Sunday was a pain, ending up going through Sheen and passing Marc Bolan house.
a happy disposition is an omnious sign.... Member since Feb 2010 1704 Points Moderator
Ive no idea precisely I think it was off Uxbridge High St ? (well over 20 year ago). I have vague memory of driving from the palace to battersea bridge (it was open then) through Hammersmith and upto Uxbridge? I used to quite like the return journey late at night diverting through central London and over London or Waterloo bridge just to see the sights. (Of course it would prohibitly expensive to do that now).
The job didnt work out anyway I then started commuting to Birmingham for the week and back to London for the weekends!