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| CD Albums: Time To Bite The Bullet Pt. 1 The Problem |
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| 29th Jun 2017, 12:03 PM | #21 REPORT | |
 | zabadak Caddacack oh da ca-caddacack, shy shy skagellack Member since Jun 2010 4189 Points |
Magic Marmalade wrote:
I think the problem boils down to the fact that we are trying to apply logic to the illogical...
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| 30th Jun 2017, 11:27 AM | #22 REPORT | |
 | Magic Marmalade If you're not lost... It's not an adventure! Member since Jun 2014 3774 Points Moderator | BIEM (Members) SIAE SIAE (Home) |
| 2nd Jul 2017, 3:19 PM | #23 REPORT | |
 | Jake Smarm Member since Jul 2015 622 Points | The problem with the current system is that I cannot look up a list of what my favourite group released in my country because their music may be listed as UK, or European or International. If we could choose different countries for our cds as suggested above, each CD would appear in the list for each country is was released in, which surely provides a better user experience. To recap, I put a CD on here as UK, if someone else has the same CD they know was issued in France they should be able to go to additional information, choose the country list and select France. The CD would then show up in the UK list and The France list. Isn't this what we are all after? |
| 2nd Jul 2017, 3:57 PM | #24 REPORT | |
 | TopPopper Member since Mar 2013 2612 Points | Or maybe anything released in "the EU" would appear in all member countries' lists? |
| 2nd Jul 2017, 10:47 PM | #25 REPORT | |
 | Lee Wrecker If you can't dig me, you can't dig nothin' Member since Nov 2013 2283 Points | Members of the economic region the EU or the geographical region? There are a lot of CDs released in the Ukraine that seem to find their way around the place. Switzerland is not in the EU and the UK will be opting out soon. I haven't seen (any?) many products that have "made in Europe" on them. Are we assuming that the EU moniker refers to the actual European Union or the Europe the geographical region? I'm not sure can anyone clarify the situation. Other than that I'm with Jake on how he sees what we should about listing things here in CD World. Recent posts referring to publishing rights, price codes and the like as indicators of place of release are not to be trusted as these are often copied the world over (sloppy artwork is the culprit). Dr. Doom's (linked above) "how to determine country advice" is in my opinion not very helpful. The examples given for international (EMI) and local (Domino) are not accurate. EMI CD's are produced and shipped worldwide there is no doubt but even in the age of globalisation they have many country specific or regional idiosyncrasies. For instance the UK cat# on EMI releases will often appear on Australian CDs but spaced differently and EMI USA cat#s are often completely different. In fact it is a very rare CD that has matching EU/UK and USA cat#s so most major label CDs will have at least this division. The usual scenario is that Japan also will have a different cat#/barcode set up and there may be other discrepancies from region to region around the globe. So the majors (including EMI) do not distribute the same CD internationally, they tend to make 5-6 different versions usually each with slightly or significantly different details. So lumping these together causes problems and has led to site users squabbling over publishing rights, sec. cat#s, local distributors on CDs labels and any manner of tiny differences that separate releases. On the other hand EU or USA produced CDs that are shipped globally to other markets listed on the site are not made international usually due to lack of evidence. It is very hard to prove that my EU and USA made CDs were in fact released in Australia (they were) but I don't want to argue the case for each and everyone of the 300-400 I own as every time I enter this territory it is a protracted exchange that requires hours of research. It would be much easier if the CD was listed as an EU or USA release and I could add my country somewhere on the page from a list. Rather than have to argue with MODS and the original poster that their plainly EU or USA release is in fact international. Most users do not like even getting in to this debate never mind coming off second best. Next, Domino may be a UK independent label but it has offices around the the world and in the USA prints and manufactures CDs and LPs. Its products are distributed globally like those of Rough Trade, 4AD, Cartel, Beggars Banquet and they all go through a worldwide network of independents set up by Martin Mills (XL Recordings and Beggars Banquet founder) so in a strange way the independents are more international than the majors in certain instances. Now, back to basics, this site is essentially a database but when the data we're being asked to enter doesn't match the data at hand I think we may be making a mistake. The assumption that everything that every major company releases is international is not one that pans out in reality. We need to go back to the information or evidence at hand as the basis for entering items otherwise no-one will be able to find anything, the database itself will be of little value and duplicate entries will be an ever increasing problem. Anyway the MODS are still grappling with all of this and hopefully some solutions will be floated or arrived at soon. By the way thanks to everyone that has contributed to this thread so far. Edited by Lee Wrecker on 3rd Jul 2017, 12:29 AM |
| 8th Aug 2017, 10:09 PM | #26 REPORT | |
 | the whistler The more it changes, the more it stays the same Member since Aug 2015 119 Points | How's about 1. Make it 'available in......' OR 2. Remove country for CDs -drastic but as a lot of people have said, the concept of a national release is not relevant in the era of globalisation. Almost like trying to add a national release to a download. |
| 9th Aug 2017, 3:50 PM | #27 REPORT | |
| Lee Wrecker If you can't dig me, you can't dig nothin' Member since Nov 2013 2283 Points | Just because "a lot of people have said, the concept of a national release is not relevant in the era of globalisation" does not necessarily mean that removing countries/regions would solve anything at all. If we removed countries we'd need to remove cat#s and bar codes too because most of these would also no longer match. You only need to look at EU and USA releases, mainstream or otherwise, of the same CD to see that the two biggest markets in the world seldom match in cat# and barcode. In fact it is unusual for a CD to match across these jurisdictions. I know there are reasons for this but I'm not going it to that. Furthermore, some regions/countries have some odd quirks in the way cat#s are written even if the number strings match. These include single uninterrupted strings, different spacing and added or deleted hyphens and are often particular to a local market where a CD made and marketed. The idea that globalisation has made local releases obsolete is a nonsense in reality. Most countries still produce many artists whose work is only released locally in a physical form. Conversely, there are of course others that are not popular at home but are in other parts of the world and only release their work in certain markets. Many genre specific and upcoming artists only release locally produced limited runs of their work and unless it is picked up by a major that's how it stays. So, I don't endorse the removing of the country category at all. I do however, agree with the whistler on point "1. Make it 'available in..." but I said that in the very first post on this thread. Just goes to show how dangerous buying into neo-liberal "globalisation" ideology can be I suppose. It's sure causing us some headaches. |
| 9th Aug 2017, 4:41 PM | #28 REPORT | |
| Magic Marmalade If you're not lost... It's not an adventure! Member since Jun 2014 3774 Points Moderator | What has become clear, is that where a single, universally applicable logic once applied to records.. (because only a couple / few big label groups ran the show, and everything either happened under or through them, and they all operated according to the same general rules) ...in the CD age (and vinyl from this era), does not, as the political / trade deals changes have meant that different labels (groups)have increasingly been operating according to their own rules, or those they chose to abide by, when they chose to abide by them. The broad strokes are that everyone except EMI labels were first manufactured by those able to make them - Japan / West Germany, and later: USA, most eveident in the target discs. These first CDs were not exclusively available in just those countries, as they exploited their monopoly in this manufacture, by exporting to other markets. These first ought really, therefore, to be International, as West German, and Japanese targets were sold in the US (although I'm not so sure US targets were sold outside the US... so these may need to be country specific)... ... as more places of manufacture became available outside these first, they no longer needed to import them from here, but could make their own, for their own markets. There is, moving on from this, a new economic model taking shape (I perceive), whereby, rather than the old method of contract press for big selling titles simply being made by the label down the road, local (country specific) labels could get larger manufacturers to make more if a CD took off, so you could find some CDs made locally, and the same title being made in greater numbers by the bigger plant in Germany or Austria, and for a larger market. (so contracting out, not sideways, but up, so to speak) but not every label group did this the same way, and EMI were comparatively late in the CD market. The upshot is, as far as trying to enter them here, it is quite possible (in fact, I'm certain) that you cannot apply flags for each label in the same way, at any given time... they will need different sets of logic, tracking their own chronological economic and financial expansions at the exact same time that another label did things otherwise. I think, eventually, we are pretty much agreed on the multiple flags possibility, but the best way to do it will be to enter the label name first, not the country, and in so doing, "activate" the available countries for that label at that time. I still think the only other time International generally applies is after EMI went, and the Omnicorps ate their remains, and now, not having such a competitor, went truly international, making universal (pun), single issues for pretty much all. Add into this the political dealings which all the above exploited to these ends... (I'm not sure I agree with the Neo-Liberal thing, as these guys just wanted to make cash...globalisation being a free-trade (Capitalism) driven f*&k up of historic proportions enabled by a lack of globalisation by redundant democratic and political institutions who had no more of a Scooby what was happening than those who were seeking to exploit their lack of understanding) ... and you've got a first class mess, which although nicely printed on labels and covers, shouldn't be confused with any of them having an idea what they were doing. This is what we are discovering here, by trying in vain to "understand" that which cannot be understood (at least by neat logic and straight lines). Please remember therefore, when entering CDs, nobody is an expert, and we've a lot to do, sorting through it, so just be more led by barcodes / cat#s and in hand details than flags / markets at the moment... so long as you don't replicate digits and specific details, your best guess as to country will do, until we have enough entries (data) to start sorting this element out. (A specific cause of duplication in the database is the same CD being entered as both UK, and again as Europe... don't look at this when entering, just see that your digits don't match, and otherwise, that it's from a different continent) Sorry for the Omni-ramble folks, but there really is no way to resolve this definitively in the immediate future, but we don't want to get mired in this and not entering CDs.  (P.S Discogs is no more authoritative than us regarding this... so don't take that site for gospel) |
| 9th Aug 2017, 6:20 PM | #29 REPORT | |
 | gregs45s SUBS ● Member since Apr 2012 7614 Points | Please don't consider making all CD's "International",this means absolutely nothing,and is not in any way informative,imagine all the Stone's CD's identified as International!!,totally meaningless and not searchable,all we are currently saying by making something International is that the same combination Cat.No./label/barcode matches another release issued elsewhere in the world,that might be,and quite often is,only one other release,so a German release may share the same details with an Argentinian release for example,but what good is it doing to group these two together on the same page?,neither the German issue would have been sold in Argentina,likewise,the Argentinian release would not have been put on sale in Germany (unless they were exports of course,which do not count as regular issues),so i can see no benefit in carrying on this way. I have,suggested in the past,and shall do so again,that multiple flags are used for each entry,i.e,the first page you would be presented with was a "Manufactured" option : Manufactured in : Artwork - Printed in Germany Disc - Made in the EU Then : Issued In : UK (with the option to add more flags when confirmation of issue in that country is presented,i.e," i bought mine in Australia at a regular price"or to use an "Unknown" option,or just leave it blank if you don't know,this,"country of issue"information could be added at any time in the future) so,using the above as an example you would have a German and European flag under "Manufactured" and UK and Australian flags under "Issued In". This,i feel would make it simpler for new/current members to enter a CD,the only thing they have to enter initially,would be the place of manufacture,information which is more often than not i think,on the artwork and Disc,and if it's not available,just use an "Unknown" option.Thereby freeing up that first stumbling block,that we all currently spend too much time considering;) As for Catalogue variations,i have repeated many times in the past that when it comes to CD's in particular, "similar",is not "identical/the same",and that minor variations in the way that CD catalogue numbers are written,are not "typo's",those variations,whether they be spaces/hyphens/additional numbers,are not errors,they are put there by the record companies for a purpose,to differentiate between different countries,and so,all variations should be entered separately IMHO,as they would have been intended for elsewhere,it is a particular "quirk" associated with CD's,and i believe we should take time to segregate,otherwise,we end up going down the "bung everything together" road by grouping "similar" Cat.No's together,akin to the dreaded "International";) So i believe it would still pay to identify by country/ies,otherwise,what differentiates one International CD from another? Just my opinion of course,and just one of many that may go toward solving this problem (hopefully;) |
| 9th Aug 2017, 8:11 PM | #30 REPORT | |
 | albert oh well, la di da Member since Aug 2013 1346 Points | The main problem I have is 'why can I not cut & paste or duplicate the details for a title already in the database'. Discogs have a master release, which looks like a better solution.... [hears gnashing of teeth and rattling of distant keyboards]. And some general comments... We are in the age of multinational media companies, the manufacturing and distribution is not restricted by country so a 'country' field (singular) will cause problems. DVDs and Blu-Rays give a better solution in that you could filter on region code. Many European DVDs are manufactured for distribution within a number of different countries, only the covers change. Again a 'master release' would seem the way to go. |
| 9th Aug 2017, 10:08 PM | #31 REPORT | |
 | Quad5point1 SUBS Member since Jul 2012 10746 Points | Would it be too simplistic to have fields marked Country of Manufacture Country Of Purchase |
| 9th Aug 2017, 10:59 PM | #32 REPORT | |
| Lee Wrecker If you can't dig me, you can't dig nothin' Member since Nov 2013 2283 Points | To the whistler and Quad5point1. In my opening piece on this thread I suggested what could be considered a combination of both your ideas. It does however also take into account products that were manufactured in a country/region but only released in a different country/region. This was my initial breakdown of how we could approach listing CDs for those who missed it first time around. 1. Made In Country/Region + Marketed in the same Country/Region = Listed as from that Country/Region 2. Made In Country/Region + Marketed in a different Country/Region = Listed as from a different Country/Region (ie. EU made UK releases) 3. Made In Country/Region + Marketed in multiple Countries/Regions = Listed as from Country/Region but available in other countries/regions by selecting from an international list of countries contained in a dropdown menu on the listing page. I've restated these ideas as a lot of similar notions seem to be being floated by contributors to this thread by people that may have not seen my opening post on this issue. I might add that I thought about this for a good 6 months before coming up with what looks like an overly simplistic way forward. My aim was to try and accommodate as many types of releases in as few categories as possible. I still think there is the bones of a way forward here after reading all the contributions to the thread so far. Edited by Lee Wrecker on 10th Aug 2017, 6:46 AM |
| 10th Aug 2017, 12:49 AM | #33 REPORT | |
 | Alenko Member since Oct 2015 2899 Points | I don't know guys. Too much attention is given to where the CD was purchased. What was the price. And so on... Where the CD was purchased doesn't necessarily mean it was released there. For example, discogs (which is site quoted here a lot) doesn't recognize EU releases that were sold in Australia as Australian issues (Australia could be any other place). Because technically those releases were not ISSUED there. Just DISTRIBUTED (SOLD). Every CD has info that can show where the CD was issued originally. Unfortunately I'm afraid that because many users here can't recognize information on the release, this site might go into wrong direction and remove flags, which in my opinion would be very bad. And by the way, country of manufacture means nothing regarding place issued. It's just a location of the CD factory. |
| 10th Aug 2017, 10:18 AM | #34 REPORT | |
| Magic Marmalade If you're not lost... It's not an adventure! Member since Jun 2014 3774 Points Moderator | The only conclusion to be drawn then is: Discogs is wrong. Blasphemy maybe... but we can't use info there as an absolute guarantee of validity. (If the day ever comes that we resolve these issues here, I'd wager Discogs would follow this site instead!) A little light bulb has gone off in my head though, in that I'm wondering if the much maligned bar-code may be the saviour of the day... As well as the information contained within it - what it is, whence it came, wither it goes etc. if there is a logical system, or sequence to how the numbers are generated, they could supply a date too. That is, even if the date of release is not one of the pieces of info contained in it, if a ode beginning 7243... etc. was only used after a certain date, it may help when compare with any dates given on the CD itself. Unfortunately, I'm no expert on barcodes so know if this would be feasible. I do maintain that the first page we see when entering CDs though, ought to be label or artist, or almost any other detail except country. |
| 10th Aug 2017, 1:59 PM | #35 REPORT | |
| gregs45s SUBS ● Member since Apr 2012 7614 Points | @MM,Surely it's not that Discogs is wrong per se,it's just that they have the same disparity between releases as we do,i.e,some CD's are entered by where they were made,and some by where they were released/issued/put on sale/distributed (or however you wish to name it;). So i think it's about how we want to identify a release,and what i suggested was that both sets of information be used,where it was made,which is surely one thing we can all agree on,which we can pretty much all just read off the actual CD/artwork,and where it was issued if known,if not known at the time,by the input from members,as an ongoing thing,i.e,i bought mine in so and so,so please ad such and such a flag. Surely we still have to use countries to differentiate between releases?,it's what defines them,i wouldn't for example search for a Stones CD by using the barcode,or even the Cat.No.(unless looking for a "specific" release of course) If you wanted to find the Australian (or wherever) release of a particular CD,you wouldn't search by barcode, I am certainly no expert on barcodes,but i don't think they identify specific countries?,"7243" for example,is quite often seen on European releases,the "7243" prefix often being followed by a part of/all of the Cat.No.,with the last digit sometimes varying,indicating the type of packaging used i believe,i.e,it ends in an 8 (jewel case),or a 9 (Digipak) (i have just picked two random numbers here by the way;) So,surely,country identification is still the way to go in terms of defining a particular release,it's just about deciding how we input that,either using country of manufacture,country of issue,or both,as i have suggested.Either way,entering as much definite/known info as we physically have in front of us (i.e,country of manufacture,etc) would ensure greater accuracy,instead of having to guesstimate,where a CD might have been released. Again,just throwing it out there;) |
| 10th Aug 2017, 3:43 PM | #36 REPORT | |
| Magic Marmalade If you're not lost... It's not an adventure! Member since Jun 2014 3774 Points Moderator | My own view is that the process of entering CDs should begin, after hitting: "Add Item", with a simple access page, where you enter: Label Artist Cat# Barcode (if present) You have four points of agreement from the off then, and like the lottery, the probability that all four points will agree with an item already in the database and not be the same country is minimal, to say the least... ...then you get the page to enter the details, and flag(s). then submit. Because at the moment, I sit there myself, scratching my head for half-hour on page one, wondering what "country" to add it as, even though I can add all the rest easily. I'd prefer to get it entered then worry about where it was sold etc. after. I think this would make it easier, and not a worrisome process for everyone to deal with. |
| 10th Aug 2017, 9:21 PM | #37 REPORT | |
| Lee Wrecker If you can't dig me, you can't dig nothin' Member since Nov 2013 2283 Points | Magic Marmalade, I think you're onto something here because the complexities of the country field are a definite deterrent to users entering CDs. Making it the last field to enter instead of the first is a brilliant idea. At least then site users would feel as though they were making progress before having to deal with the country field. So reordering the input process is a neat way to circumvent being stopped in your tracks from the very first question. So your idea of shuffling the country field to the end makes sense to me. I think combining your idea to something like mine above for determining the country would make the process much more user friendly. Which I think is the object of this entire thread. In the interest of clarity I'll outline how we could go about this step by step as you have above. Go to "Add Item" (or read the guide to adding CD albums) and enter: Label Artist Cat# Barcode (if present) Country (Optional Field) (read the guide to choosing a country) The guide to choosing a country link would look something like this: 1. Made In Country/Region + Marketed in the same Country/Region = Listed as from that Country/Region 2. Made In Country/Region + Marketed in a different Country/Region = Listed as from a different Country/Region (ie. EU made UK releases) This would include what MM calls Alpha and Omega releases and hopefully deal with that problem. If you know your CD was 3. Made In Country/Region + Marketed in multiple Countries/Regions = Listed as from Country/Region of original release (should perhaps be changed to country/region of manufacture)but available in other countries/regions by selecting from an international list of countries contained in a drop down menu on the listing page. 4. If you are still unsure of Country/Region select Unknown Country If a member selects Unknown Country a Mod could enter it while the entry is being checked if there is enough data entered to determine it. This would hopefully get round the problem of having too many CDs listed from Unknown Country. I know a lot of this has been put forward before in separate suggestions from a number of contributors but what I'm attempting to do here is create a more comprehensive model for the Mods to examine when dealing with this issue. By the way I thought this thread had fizzled out but I'm glad to see it is still ticking along and new ideas are coming in which is great. Thanks to everyone that has contributed so far. Edited by Lee Wrecker on 11th Aug 2017, 10:02 PM |
| 11th Aug 2017, 2:48 PM | #38 REPORT | |
| gregs45s SUBS ● Member since Apr 2012 7614 Points | @MM/Lee. I can see where you're both coming from,but,to be honest,would deferring the point where you have to choose the "Country"from first option to fifth really make a great deal of difference?,you still have to make the same decisions,but instead,have to make those choices a bit later-on. Lee,with the country choices you've suggested,you still are asking for the place they were marketed to be added,and although,like in my suggestion you've suggested choosing "Unknown Country",people seem reluctant to use this,and as we have discussed in the past,this may be down to not wanting to appear ignorant or "lose face",and so,quite often,we get guesses;) I would still maintain that asking members to just add the information they physically have in front of them,and therefore,can be certain of (i.e. entering just the country of manufacture (where apparent,and to choose "Unknown" if not),then asking them to only add the country of issue if they definitely knew (i.e,i bought it in...),otherwise,have the default as "Unknown" then either a member or Mod will add the country/ies (via "Make A Correction" as time goes on.This way,you free up that first stumbling block that most members face (The above idea would require multiple flags options) |
| 11th Aug 2017, 4:17 PM | #39 REPORT | |
| Magic Marmalade If you're not lost... It's not an adventure! Member since Jun 2014 3774 Points Moderator | I think you've answered your own question here Greg... ...If you can't get past the first page, how can you enter the rest? Members not wanting to seem like they don't know this kind of thing won't be able to enter anything as it is, or will be deterred from trying. As has been amply demonstrated here and elsewhere, country is the single item that is most ambiguous about any CD - that does depend on your knowledge about how to interpret what's on the disc or packaging... whereas the artist / catalogue number / barcode at least, are as they are and need no interpretation, you are simply presenting factually accurate information that's there in black and white. I just think it will be more user friendly, and get more people adding CDs if you can say all that you can most surely say when entering straight off the bat, and leave this element, which requires haggling over / correcting until later, and at other users' leisure. It should be a pastime, a hobby, and a pleasure... not a quiz (not at this point, anyway ) |
| 11th Aug 2017, 4:30 PM | #40 REPORT | |
| gregs45s SUBS ● Member since Apr 2012 7614 Points | Yes indeed MM,it should be more about the music,and having fun entering items and talking about the content instead of presenting you with a fairly tough task (let's be honest,even those of us who have been entering CD's for a while still um-and-ahh about the where released choice:),that's why i feel it would be better to add just the country of manufacture as you enter a CD,but,importantly,having the option to add country flags at a later date with regard to where it was released,this can then be debated/added by Mods/members at a later date.I feel it still is important to collate as much info about the release as possible though,so that's why we will still need both options (manufactured/released in).As we know though,there is probably no one fix-all solution,nor will it be easy,but debating it will hopefully further progression. |
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